The bigger question is why give EPO to athletes in the first place who are already naturally stimulated to produce high quantities of EPO?
That's like asking why GDR coaches gave female athletes testosterone when they 'were already naturally stimulated to produce testosterone through lifting weights'.
Oh, you probably do ask that question.
It's a bad comparison, and it doesn't answer the question about EPO.
The short answer is never. WA cannot ban a country regardless of how many athletes are popped.
They can ban a federation (e.g. Athletics Kenya) if they are acting bad. WADA can ban ADAK, if they are non-compliant, and can revoke WADA Lab certification for compliance failures.
But even then, athletes are usually allowed to compete under neutral colors, with conditions.
Yes, they can. They came close to banning Kenya several years ago as a result of the number of athletes being popped. Kenya survived by agreeing to spend x amount of money on doping, and x number of tests each year, both agreements they have now reneged upon.
Really? I had seen such rumors often reported, but never confirmed by World Athletics. On the contrary, I saw in a press conference "World Athletics President Seb Coe said reports about a possible full-scale ban for the country were misguided".
If recent Kenyan budget cuts prevent athlete testing, imposing a nationwide ban won't be necessary if athletes cannot meet their "Category A" minimum testing olibgations.
Good comparison. Having some or even "high quantities" of xyz does not mean that more won't be better. That should be obvious, so that rekrunner question is either evidence for his low IQ or trolling.
Natural Epo is also not better than artificial Epo. In a way, giving additional Epo to an athlete living at 2000 m is comparable to having him move to 3000 - 4000 m, without all the problems arising from living and training at 4000 m. Thus their extra high Epo amount is actually not superhuman, because it could be achieved naturally.
So rekrunner doesn't need to worry about superhuman metabolism and energy kinetics and basic biology.
Can you provide evidence of a high IQ, rather than a hypothetical? I'm really only looking for an intelligent response.
A low-IQ response is suggesting passively: "does not mean more won't be better".
A high-IQ response would answer what is it that says that more EPO will be better?
For all this talk about how athletes and coaches "know", is all the hype really just based on unconfirmed hypotheticals about what "could be"?
The doping problem in Kenya is systemic, this is the 82nd Kenyan currently serving a doping suspension. If any other country had even half that amount they would be banned from competing at Worlds/Olympics.
I don't know why they aren't banned. One problem I have is how many, over the last 10 years, have taken prize money on the US road circuit from clean runners.
I have a friend who paid his way to races around the east coast area and consistently lost to Kenyans- maybe 4-5 "B" team Kenyans took most of the money.
How many were doping and got away with it back then?
How many promising, clean runners lost to them and were driven out of the sport because they couldn't make a living?
”pedigree”, so now every Texan and Floridian kid who has been using since grade 9 or 10 will be legit because they have a “pedigree”?
WTF is the matter with you people? Willful blindness? You WANT/NEED yo see the world in a particular light, for whatever reason…maybe because you cannot bear to admit that you are deeply wrong about peoples’ basic constitutions.
You would have made great missionaries.
Such hubris, it’s such a dead end. Your fantasy world is boring af to me. You’re like the trust-funders who proudly display their “equality” and “WWE” buttons while sitting in first-class.
Anybody who actually believes that ANY modern elite distance athlete is clean is a moran, always groping for excuses/justifications/explanations/deniability, in an attempt to feel better about themselves.
The doping problem in Kenya is systemic, this is the 82nd Kenyan currently serving a doping suspension. If any other country had even half that amount they would be banned from competing at Worlds/Olympics.
I don't know why they aren't banned. One problem I have is how many, over the last 10 years, have taken prize money on the US road circuit from clean runners.
I have a friend who paid his way to races around the east coast area and consistently lost to Kenyans- maybe 4-5 "B" team Kenyans took most of the money.
How many were doping and got away with it back then?
How many promising, clean runners lost to them and were driven out of the sport because they couldn't make a living?
You are so vocal against Kenyans, why don't you look at your own doped runners taking money from your clean runners? Ever heard of Christian Hesch?
Sounds like she is returning the money. Not sure why, I don't see anything stating it’s not allowed.
She is supposed to return the money. Easier said than done, but this is an easier case as the admitted infraction occurred before the race and little time has passed. It’s pretty incredible that Edna Kiplagat gets the dub at age 42.
Renato used to use the 'Kenyans never cheat (too religious and smiley and love their mothers too much), and the ones who are caught are so stupid they don't even realise they're doing anything wrong' excuse perhaps a decade ago.
Haven't heard it for a while.
Funny how you and your buddy Steve are happy to attack Renato but never use your real names.
Agree 100 percent. His or her handle, speaks volumes.
And yet I'm always told here (including by 'Kenyans') that athletics is a minority sport that few Kenyans care about, and all anybody is interested in is whether Barcelona or Man United won their last matches.
Probably true. I'm talking about how the world perceives Kenya. Ban them and they will take that as an attack on their success and milk it for all the sympathy they can get.
Even if running is not the most popular sport in Kenya it brings in significant money and that money goes to people, influential people, other than the runners who bring it in.
”pedigree”, so now every Texan and Floridian kid who has been using since grade 9 or 10 will be legit because they have a “pedigree”?
WTF is the matter with you people? Willful blindness? You WANT/NEED yo see the world in a particular light, for whatever reason…maybe because you cannot bear to admit that you are deeply wrong about peoples’ basic constitutions.
You would have made great missionaries.
Such hubris, it’s such a dead end. Your fantasy world is boring af to me. You’re like the trust-funders who proudly display their “equality” and “WWE” buttons while sitting in first-class.
Anybody who actually believes that ANY modern elite distance athlete is clean is a moran, always groping for excuses/justifications/explanations/deniability, in an attempt to feel better about themselves.
MORANS.
or SPRINTER
duh
Yes, or sprinter. Of course. But this is a distance doping thread.
And of course I meant WWF, not WWE, lol
I have been trying to understand this phenomenon of hero-worship. The best I can come up with is that some people need to believe in a God, some sort of state of grace which they might achieve for themselves if they do everything right.
And this is why they continue to believe that people can do these otherworldly performances without drugs--because if they had to use drugs, then they wouldn't really be the same as "us", and we could never achieve their position no matter how many other things we did "right".
They are treated as Gods who walk the earth, as models, and models are something that I think that some people intrinsically require, to help guide their actions.
To bust them is to kill God, and is a form of blasphemy.
Athletes are chosen as Gods because they do the same things we can all do, only better. They don't shoot lightning from their fingers, make the earth tremble, or assume different forms--they jump, run, throw, swim, etc. If they did those other things, we could never attain their state of grace, and so they would not be used as a model.
In a funny way, if any of that is true, then it would make some sense to cover up all doping, and preserve their images as pure, so that people would emulate what they believe they know of them and their presumed behaviors--eating right, sleeping well, training hard, dedicating to an ideal, competing honorably, telling the truth to both themselves and others, etc.
Obviously all of this has been thought of and articulated by others, and maybe supported, maybe dismissed.
Yes, or sprinter. Of course. But this is a distance doping thread.
And of course I meant WWF, not WWE, lol
I have been trying to understand this phenomenon of hero-worship. The best I can come up with is that some people need to believe in a God, some sort of state of grace which they might achieve for themselves if they do everything right.
And this is why they continue to believe that people can do these otherworldly performances without drugs--because if they had to use drugs, then they wouldn't really be the same as "us", and we could never achieve their position no matter how many other things we did "right".
They are treated as Gods who walk the earth, as models, and models are something that I think that some people intrinsically require, to help guide their actions.
To bust them is to kill God, and is a form of blasphemy.
Athletes are chosen as Gods because they do the same things we can all do, only better. They don't shoot lightning from their fingers, make the earth tremble, or assume different forms--they jump, run, throw, swim, etc. If they did those other things, we could never attain their state of grace, and so they would not be used as a model.
In a funny way, if any of that is true, then it would make some sense to cover up all doping, and preserve their images as pure, so that people would emulate what they believe they know of them and their presumed behaviors--eating right, sleeping well, training hard, dedicating to an ideal, competing honorably, telling the truth to both themselves and others, etc.
Obviously all of this has been thought of and articulated by others, and maybe supported, maybe dismissed.
We can say the same thing about drugs. Some people need to believe in drugs, And this is why they continue to believe that people can do these otherworldly performances.
Renato used to use the 'Kenyans never cheat (too religious and smiley and love their mothers too much), and the ones who are caught are so stupid they don't even realise they're doing anything wrong' excuse perhaps a decade ago.
Haven't heard it for a while.
Maybe it was true when he said it, and Kenya has changed. Renato also said around that time that he warned Athletics Kenya of foreigners importing a drug problem, and was told to go away.
Seems like this changed around about 10-15 years ago.
It changed when they actually started testing them.
If Athletics Kenya can't afford to test ANY athletes, which has been the case for 2 months since the Olympics, they HAVE to be banned.
Kenya should have been banned from the sport a long time ago and athletes should not be allowed to train in Kenya period. However, if World Athletics does not want to do this there are other ways in which the problem can be addressed by the organizers in the sport who are interested in having clean competition:
Road race organizers could easily stop inviting Kenyan athletes to their races. Why are they not doing this if they are interested in having a clean sport?
If road race organizers keep on inviting Kenyan athletes to races, local government could also step in. A mayor of a town like Boston or New York could easily take a stance along the lines of "These are our streets which we are letting you use for your race. I don't want athletes who are cheating with PEDs to be on our streets, it's not a good look for us and sets a bad example for our communities. If you invite Kenyans to the race this year you cannot hold the race in our town".
Measures such as these would start to address the problem even if World Athletics does not do anything.
None of this is discrimination; it is just making competitors compete according to the rules in place. If Kenya wants to continue competing in the way they are doing, the Enhanced Games are open to them and they can earn money from that competition instead.
We can say the same thing about drugs. Some people need to believe in drugs, And this is why they continue to believe that people can do these otherworldly performances.
No, not 'some people'. Virtually the universal scientific and medical consensus, as well as obviously WADA, World Athletics, the AIU, just about every sporting body, and thousands of coaches and athletes willing to risk bans or even imprisonment because they are using them, and seeing the results.
But some krank on a running forum says they don't work because Russians (or Soviets?) don't run as fast as Kenyans (except that their female middle-distance runners did), forgetting that if drugs don't work, Russians (or Soviets?) still don't run as fast as Kenyans so it's a meaningless argument.
Please Brojos limit this guy to 10 posts a day. If you were serious about anti-doping, you would do that.
Kenya should have been banned from the sport a long time ago and athletes should not be allowed to train in Kenya period. However, if World Athletics does not want to do this there are other ways in which the problem can be addressed by the organizers in the sport who are interested in having clean competition:
Road race organizers could easily stop inviting Kenyan athletes to their races. Why are they not doing this if they are interested in having a clean sport?
If road race organizers keep on inviting Kenyan athletes to races, local government could also step in. A mayor of a town like Boston or New York could easily take a stance along the lines of "These are our streets which we are letting you use for your race. I don't want athletes who are cheating with PEDs to be on our streets, it's not a good look for us and sets a bad example for our communities. If you invite Kenyans to the race this year you cannot hold the race in our town".
Measures such as these would start to address the problem even if World Athletics does not do anything.
None of this is discrimination; it is just making competitors compete according to the rules in place. If Kenya wants to continue competing in the way they are doing, the Enhanced Games are open to them and they can earn money from that competition instead.
That would be an ideal solution. I do remember though one Italian road race attempting to do this quite recently, and local SJWs caused an outcry, accusing them of racism, and the race organizers gave in.
TBH, I'm surprised more athletes don't speak out against Kenya. Nick Willis was pretty much a lone voice in speaking out against the doping situation when he was running, but if a few of the top guys did, maybe even getting together and issuing a statement calling for a ban on Kenya, then it would put pressure on World Athletics and WADA.
That would be an ideal solution. I do remember though one Italian road race attempting to do this quite recently, and local SJWs caused an outcry, accusing them of racism, and the race organizers gave in.
TBH, I'm surprised more athletes don't speak out against Kenya. Nick Willis was pretty much a lone voice in speaking out against the doping situation when he was running, but if a few of the top guys did, maybe even getting together and issuing a statement calling for a ban on Kenya, then it would put pressure on World Athletics and WADA.
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