Another 8 Kenyans busted

Fact Check : You also said this about Elias Ngeny literally 4 months ago :

We also don’t know how many races in 2019-20 are missing from his ledger.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=12709322&page=1

Both things can be true. In the case of Aaron Kemei for instance, Will Coop noted he’d run 1:46-7 on a dirt track in an early year performance in 2023 which indicated major potential. It wasn’t included in his WA profile. For Ngeny he had a huge breakthrough in that race but he’d clearly been racing and training for some time. I wonder if you confused him with Djamel Sedjati.

Agreed.

And they are just two of a big group of hoadys.

FFS, the point is you claimed that the Kenyan female "hadn't raced since 2019", and you've many times claimed that countless races in Kenya never get reported or recorded online, as you did with the example I gave with Ngeny.

You're playing the Rekrunner trick of derailing the thread, but for the record, some unknown Kenyan who emerged from lockdown and ran 1:43 in the Kenyan trials, and hasn't done anything significant since, is an obvious doper in a land of 400+ dopers, 8 more this week.

Well said.

I do think it's a handful of posters doing this, with the 'Hoady' guy being the worst offender.

This is a running site. Kenyans are a dominant force in distance running. They have a high level of doping busts - higher than most every country. Big fish. Small fish. you know the drill. And there would appear to be collusion between coaches/managers (mostly European) and officials. As long as the busts keep rolling along it would be a disgrace if this was not seen as being comment worthy.

Kenyan bans currently at 6 pages. India do pretty well too.

So your insinuation is that there are lots on unlisted road races in Kenya with prize money that she has been competing in from 2021-2024? There’re possibly a few, but I can’t think of many athletes who only compete in Kenya especially after traveling internationally. You compete internationally to make money on the roads.

Many track races at the youth/HS/regional level do not get posted. That is a fact not a theory. This is also true everywhere, and nobody would say an American high schooler came out of nowhere because their results from 14-18 don’t make World Athletics. The difference? We keep results for junior competition elsewhere and it’s accessible unlike digging up Emmanuel Wanyonyi’s HS running feats.

Lower key AK weekend meets or ones held at stadiums not up to code don’t get listed either. They are not for money but for developmental purposes anyway.

Road races for seniors that are unlisted in Kenya maybe a few, but the ones with bigger prize money either are posted on WA or written about in the press . Thats how we know Kelvin Kiptum got discovered winning the Nairobi City Marathon (I think) even though it’s unlisted.

Elias Ngeny has run under 1:46 numerous times. He ran 1:44.0 at a later Trials race. He’s not the crazy example you think he is, but you’re obsessed with him. There’re numerous runners who run a spot 1:43-1:44 but are more consistently in 1:45-6 shape while touching on 1:44s when peaked like Ngeny.

lol you used VPN to upvote your post five times and downvote Thoughtsleader's five times too? hahaha

All the crying Kenyan fans in the thread lol pathetic

The guy? You mean the big hoady group?

Many such cases.

And they’ve been hitting the needles en masse since 1987.

There doesn't have to be a point beyond the surface level. It can be really quite simple and based on fact and the facts are in the numbers. You read my posts - I am a huge proponent of nuance and not being fixated on quantifiables - especially when it comes to analysing running but this is different - this is very black and white/cut and dried.

Kenyan athletics has a doping problem. To suggest that it doesn't means contextualizing it in the sense of "well they don't actually have more dopers than other nations, the other nations are just better at getting away with it and so don't catch anyone". Now this would be incredibly cynical but I don't believe that's the case.

I have also floated the idea that one of the reasons Kenya and India aren't banned yet is because of the difference between state-sponsored/encouraged doping and what we assume in Kenya/India to be the case - that because of certain conditions and factors in those countries it's really hard/borderline impossible to control. But I'm not entirely sure this matters to be honest.

With respect to "no top athletes" - again, I don't know if that's a good enough reason to give the country with the most banned athletes a pass. You can make a case and say "it's not the top athletes it's the mediocre ones who are trying to get there and combined with sheer volume of athletes it's how we get such a high volume of positives" - okay sure. But that hypothesis holds no more or less weight than "the best athletes simply have better resources and better advice on how to circumvent the system" - basically the same model that has existed for athletes/agents/coaches with resources ($$$) forever. Are the reasons the top Kenyans don't get caught simply the same way the top Russians didn't really get caught during their heyday? Or the top Americans? Or the top Spanish athletes? Or the top Jamaicans? Or the top Brits? Why is that not equally as plausible?

Don't you ever listen to Pr. Rekrunner?

6 out of 16 is only 30%. Proving that Kenya is among the cleaner countries!

10 out of 16 are clean. Proving that only a tiny minority of Kenyan stars dope!

Last but not least, the fastest runners are from the clean group. Proving that doping makes you slower!

Again nothing unfair, but when you consider a blanket ban, you consider fairness to athletes overall.

Thats why state-sponsored has been the standard. Athletes competing and training in Russia were not only encouraged to dope and supplied drugs, the powers-that-be had systems and procedures in place to cover up tests, swap out tests, and so on. The system was such you’d expect an athlete intent on being clean to face issues and want to train basically anywhere else.

Now in Kenya, they haven’t turned over doping like this. Instead they’ve uncovered a series of middlemen pushing drugs wise/effective (EPO) or unwise (Tri Acetate, Nandrolone, obscure stuff nobody’s heard of) indiscriminately. Plenty of athletes willing to take them without a second thought.

So if doping is more random and “available” in the sense that it’s being pushed and can be gotten by athletes, what is the appropriate move?

I would in fact argue part of the problem is so many athletes/tourists not from Kenya go training there and a ban would have repercussions for the country in huge ways that World Athletics probably doesn’t want. So a ban would take Kenya out of the sport entirely. There’s also a ton of investment from the West.

Anyhow do you think we should judge every athlete with a broad brush? For guys who’ve been tested 100 times over the last 10 like Kipyegon, Kipchoge or whoever do I ban you because some 2:12 marathoner or 4:15 1500m runner gets popped in a spot test?

It is easier to call for a blanket ban than consider what it actually means. Attacking the problem is ultimately what you want to see. That seems to be happening.

And I think a separate argument is whether testing is effective vs elite athletes with resources. You either believe it is or believe it’s not. If you believe it’s not there’s almost no country that doesn’t have historical doping.

And just seeing at the end I think some disingenuous comparisons with state-sanctioned doping in different eras with far less testing. US covered up doping at the Trisls famously right, and there were plenty of busts anyway. Russia we discussed. Spains anti doping accused of covering up in a very rare testing era. Didn’t Jamaica just basically do no testing? I mean these are more documented and I feel like nowadays the testing apparatus is much stronger. If the top Kenyans are doping it’s sophisticated like it could be for anyone else. Not the macro in cahoots stuff.

You have no idea what "strong" athletes will do. Your use of the term is nothing more than that if an athlete isn't doping they must be "strong", since only the "weak" dope. You have no other way of defining the difference between strong and weak, except whether they dope or not. Since you don't know who is doping and who isn't you have no idea which athletes are "strong" or "weak". Like most things, the terms are meaningless coming out of your mouth. But what this thread shows is that another 8 Kenyans have been cited with violations. That's more than some countries would have incurred in the history of their sport. Kenya no longer has any legitimate place in international sport. Your inane waffle is utterly irrelevant to the seriousness of the problem.

Only 1% of tests return a positive and yet because it is known that many more dope than are caught the 8 athletes just cited this week are a drop in the Kenyan doping bucket. For 8 busted athletes it means there will be several hundred doping who haven't been caught. That is the reality other athletes face when they compete against Kenyans.

I asked Google the question "Who is the most popular athlete in England?"

and here is the answer I got

Open image

you can try it by yourself.

His first name is also the most common 1st name in the world.*

Can we deny the reality?
Can we deny the shoes effect?
Can we deny the conditions?

Can we deny the big Nordic corruption (based on unequal wealth distribution)?