I think you're missing the point. This is a thread about more casual fitness that is influenced by sprint training. This is not a thread for serious sprint training. Furthermore, you can still gain speed from sub-optimal sprint training, especially if you're not super well-trained in sprinting.
If Joe-Schmoe-40-year-old goes out and does 10x50m, assuming he's worked up to it and can execute the workout safely, it's still likely going to make him faster, even though it's way more volume than a sprinter might do. If he's enjoying it and it keeps him fit and he's seeing sprint/plyo gains, then it sounds like it's working for its intended purpose.
... Distance runners like to stereotype sprinters as “lazy” or “easy” workouts. Well, those “lazy, easy” workouts can be very good for you and keep you looking physically good too.
Distance runners do not understand that sprinting is an entirely different type of running with radically different technique, metabolic requirements and ideal physical attributes.
As old guy, I am exploring the same idea except more focused on 400 style training purely for fitness. It strikes nice balance between speed and cardio. Lots of 20/30/40 second intervals and hills, experimenting with different recovery lengths. Loads of fun. Grass or gravel, no track yet.
Hardest part is not overdoing it. Really have to reign it in some days because so easy to overreach the older I get. I really feel it the next day.
my HS XC/distance TF rarely stepped foot on the track except certain workouts and TF meets. the first instinct of a lot of new adult joggers is road work which is about as harsh as it gets. grass, trails.
People should be able to do all the skips. It's not hard!
You just have to put the time to learn the skills of neuromuscular coordination.
I went from gangly and uncoordinated, being referenced in my XC team's post-meet flier for Athlete of the Meet as having given "a great final kick uncharacteristic of a [last name] brother"
Speed is a skill and everyone can harness and develop a little bit of it
As old guy, I am exploring the same idea except more focused on 400 style training purely for fitness. It strikes nice balance between speed and cardio. Lots of 20/30/40 second intervals and hills, experimenting with different recovery lengths. Loads of fun. Grass or gravel, no track yet.
Hardest part is not overdoing it. Really have to rein it in some days because so easy to overreach the older I get. I really feel it the next day.
I think you’re still looking like you’re doing too much volume. 400 style training looks more similar to 100m training with some speed endurance workouts. Maybe like sprinters tempo of 8x200m at 75~80% effort with 2 min rest at times. But most of the workouts would be much shorter distances or flying start sprints to work on your max speed. there should be zero jogging for 400m and below. Best to work on your max speed.
You are missing the point and contradicting your original post which I actually agreed with above. @Gross oversimplication said it best - this was a thread about sprint-style training for fitness, not preparing for a race.
I am running short intervals with a quarter miler's mentality of letting it rip, which is very different from the hobby jogger plodding. You are reading way too much into my post.
He eats high protein/low fat which means decent muscle mass and low body fat but crap skin and ultimately hormonal issues and nutrient deficiencies.
I watched his video. First, he gets kudos for even working out at 73. His focus on METS was confusing and I don't recommend that anyone run with 1kg ankle weights, but what he's doing in that video is a good exercise (minus the ankle weights) for senior citizens because it boosts metabolism. It's called Sprint 8 and I've been doing variations of it for 20 years. You can look it up, but basically it's 8 reps of 20-30 seconds extremely hard effort followed by 90 seconds of rest.
Letsrun is mostly serious distance runners so they can't relate to the OP's point, which seems to me to be geared more towards adults who have taken up running as an adult with no training and often below average talent. They're told "If you get tired, just run slower!" so they're moving slower than a brisk walk!
To get back to the OP's point, watch any local 5k from midpack to the last runner/walker. They're shuffling. Don't get me wrong. Shuffling is completely okay if the goal is to finish and/or burn fat, but if they want to get faster and stay younger longer, they need to add some weekly workouts where they are actually running. The Galloway run/walk is a better approach for them, but even then, for many, it becomes a shuffle/walk because they never try to run "hard."
I think a better fitness approach for old shufflers would be to run "hard" for 20 meters, walk a minute, then run "hard" again.
Don't confuse what I'm saying here. In this case, running hard is defined at whatever they can handle in a near sprint effort... maybe 20 meters in 6 seconds (an 8min/mile pace). Over time, they could gradually increase the distance/time running up to 30 seconds.
Of course, they can continue to do their 14 min/mile shuffle on their other days, but my point is that they need some fast and hard efforts to get fit.
Plyos don't become dangerous solely because you get older. They become dangerous because most people don't do them in any capacity.
That said, any exercise becomes more risky the older you get, but you can't limit it to just plyos. I've met a lot of older "joggers" with borderline ruined bodies from too many easy miles and never any strength. Most of the masters sprinters I've run with were pretty spry.
Plyos get dangerous when people use them as an ego boost and try jumping higher than they should to impress others. If you adjust the box/hurdle height for your ability and condition they are safe. If you are too old to jump over any hurdle then use one of the shorter soft boxes.
Here's a tip. I stopped doing box jumps for a couple of years because I didn't have a safe place to do them. Gold's Gym has the boxes, but if I missed, there was too much gym equipment around to fall against. It wasn't worth the injury risk.
Now, I put an elastic band over the monkey bars on a machine and hold the band as I jump on the box. I don't use the bands to help with the jump (except on the last couple of reps), but I can keep myself from falling if I miss the box.
You do plyos in your 50s? Not sure I would recommend that.
Sprints and interval training to get the heart rate up, sure.
Plyos don't become dangerous solely because you get older. They become dangerous because most people don't do them in any capacity.
That said, any exercise becomes more risky the older you get, but you can't limit it to just plyos. I've met a lot of older "joggers" with borderline ruined bodies from too many easy miles and never any strength. Most of the masters sprinters I've run with were pretty spry.
I didn't say dangerous.
Firstly, not good for your joints, not if you do them in any volume. That's the point of them.
I guess there are plyos and plyos. A hobby jogger in their 50s isn't going to do them with much intensity. It's like watching a distance runner running 60s, amusing.
When adults get into running, it’s mostly jogging and slower paced running. It’s almost a default as universal knowledge to stay fit/healthy is to run/jog. There are various reasons that we all know.
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Excellent post OP
I always say, look at kids playing on a field and look how they run. Well , you ran that way once. Now why are 90% of adults plodding, no fluency and form, just hard work.
Biggest reason is that most stopped exercising, got some weight on etc, then took up running as if it is something new. They start how? Jogging.
Straightaway they are now plodders because...the speed is slow to compensate for the level of fitness and the distance they want to go. If you started by getting those muscles back to doing what they should, do sprinting and ad hoc running, chasing the dgog, a football etc, that's a different form.
As someone who sucked at running at school, well I 'could' run but most of the jocks beat me, I found later at 19 that because I didn't stop, and instead of running far, I ran faster. i sprinted, I ran very short distance runs, 2km, 3km etc very fast, as fast as i could, I chased the clock, had mates who did same and we raced each other all the time. We did all sorts of fitness exercises you would classify as plyo etc. A few years later when I startd doing time trials, brought my 8km down to sub 26 and falling. I joined a club at 26, I podiumed at national x country at 28, I ran sub 2:30 marathons and I have always been told I have smooth form. It came from the speed.
This is the big reason that I always mention form . Good form is speed, it is efficiency , it is endurance...it is the prime factor in running.
I think you’re still looking like you’re doing too much volume. 400 style training looks more similar to 100m training with some speed endurance workouts. Maybe like sprinters tempo of 8x200m at 75~80% effort with 2 min rest at times. But most of the workouts would be much shorter distances or flying start sprints to work on your max speed. there should be zero jogging for 400m and below. Best to work on your max speed.
You are missing the point and contradicting your original post which I actually agreed with above. @Gross oversimplication said it best - this was a thread about sprint-style training for fitness, not preparing for a race.
I am running short intervals with a quarter miler's mentality of letting it rip, which is very different from the hobby jogger plodding. You are reading way too much into my post.
I think there's two things going on here:
1) People arguing over what "sprint" training is. I was a sprinter before an MD runner. My high school regularly turned out sub 11 and as low as 10.5 guys. Those guys would sometimes run things like 8x30s hill or 10x100 or whatever, something that people here are arguing is 800 training. Meanwhile as an 800 guy, once a week I'd warm up and run something like 4x40m + 1x200, sometimes with blocks because I lead off the 4x4—was this sprint training or middle distance training? Turns out they can be similar. Was all of this ideal sprint training? I don't know, probably not. We had a lot of fast kids and our coach ran 10.3 in his prime off of similar stuff. So clearly it worked to some extent.
2) People not understanding that suboptimal training still works, even more so when you're not super fit and dedicated. If I take a totally sedentary person and have them jog super slow a few times a week, their top speed will likely increase simply due to being more active and coordinated. The faster you get, the closer to MaxV you need to work to gain speed. Unless you're a dedicated sprinter, you can gain speed working well below max effort. A skinny and weak XC kid can get faster off of 4x20s hills at the end of easy runs once or twice a week, even if they never touch max speed/effort.
It's not sprinting for 10s w/ 50s rest. It's drills for 10s w/ 50s rest between. A bit less demanding than sprinting, but you're not wrong.
Is it absolutely ideal for developing max speed? Absolutely not.
Is it basically copying the Feed the Cats program, which is good enough for almost everyone except seriously dedicated sprinters? Yeah, totally.
Is it good enough for the average person? Yes. I used this basic template as a sub 50 400/800m runner back in the day.
You do not understand "Feed The Cats", which is all about doing few reps at max V, preceded by some drills and plyos. 10s with 50s reps is not in the FTC playbook. Tony Holler wants you to recover longer than 50s when you are doing maxV. Yes, that is OK for someone training for 400/800.
Yes I do, clearly better than you. Watch this. One of the first slides: "Ten speed drills in ten minutes." It's about teaching beginners and getting an efficient workout, he addresses that it's not absolutely optimal. I never said sprinting at MaxV for 10s, I said doing drills.
You do not understand "Feed The Cats", which is all about doing few reps at max V, preceded by some drills and plyos. 10s with 50s reps is not in the FTC playbook. Tony Holler wants you to recover longer than 50s when you are doing maxV. Yes, that is OK for someone training for 400/800.
Yes I do, clearly better than you. Watch this. One of the first slides: "Ten speed drills in ten minutes." It's about teaching beginners and getting an efficient workout, he addresses that it's not absolutely optimal. I never said sprinting at MaxV for 10s, I said doing drills.
People should be able to do all the skips. It's not hard!
You just have to put the time to learn the skills of neuromuscular coordination.
I went from gangly and uncoordinated, being referenced in my XC team's post-meet flier for Athlete of the Meet as having given "a great final kick uncharacteristic of a [last name] brother"
Speed is a skill and everyone can harness and develop a little bit of it
I agree that people can and should learn to do all the skips if they want to get faster, but you have to imagine you're an average person who maybe played two seasons of basketball a decade ago and has since been relatively inactive. Maybe you spend 45 minutes once or twice a week doing these, not 5 or 6 times a week like a real sprint athlete.
I can do skips and drills in my sleep. The random guy at the gym can not. And it might take him a few weeks of practice to even be semi-competent in the A-skip. For people like this, I keep it simpler.
I'm about to start working with the local lacrosse team to help with speed drills. Their coach asked if I could volunteer a bit of time. I'll basically copy the FTC atomic workout but make some tweaks, Tony Holler's also offered insights into taking this training to non-track athletes. I think these kids are capable of A-skips for sure. B-skips might be pushing it. Single leg bounds? No way, only half of them could do it well enough to get an appropriate stimulus, and I'd fear injury for the others because they'd overreach themselves. But if I see steady progression and they're getting better, we'll introduce more advanced drills.
He eats high protein/low fat which means decent muscle mass and low body fat but crap skin and ultimately hormonal issues and nutrient deficiencies.
I watched his video. First, he gets kudos for even working out at 73. His focus on METS was confusing and I don't recommend that anyone run with 1kg ankle weights, but what he's doing in that video is a good exercise (minus the ankle weights) for senior citizens because it boosts metabolism. It's called Sprint 8 and I've been doing variations of it for 20 years. You can look it up, but basically it's 8 reps of 20-30 seconds extremely hard effort followed by 90 seconds of rest.
Good to see you chime in Fisky. You should write a PDF book on sprinting for 50+ yr olds
Funny you should mention Sprint 8 which is something I've been trying for the last several months. In a nutshell, its 8 x 30 sec "sprints" w/ 90 sec rest. I use more of a progression working up to roughly 80-90% on the last several reps.
For those interested, the premise is that stimulation of fast-twitch muscles coupled with oxygen debt from the short rest periods will trigger release of growth hormone. Not sure I buy into the claims of massive growth hormone surges, but its definitely a different stimulus from the typical distance run.
Campbell found that both he and the athletes he was training were getting much greater gains with sprints. Sprinting takes the athlete through an aerobic phase at the beginning of the sprint and then pushes them beyond that i...
When older people on here say they do "speed" training it is likely slow as feck. Most of the general public are not capable of it.
It's all relative and for my own satisfaction so it doesn't matter. I can hit 27.x for 200m. Sure I'd need a 50m head start to compete in the Diamond League, but it feels good for me and does feel like I'm sprinting. Some fraction of teenagers aren't any faster.
Yes I do, clearly better than you. Watch this. One of the first slides: "Ten speed drills in ten minutes." It's about teaching beginners and getting an efficient workout, he addresses that it's not absolutely optimal. I never said sprinting at MaxV for 10s, I said doing drills.
I'm sorry, he recommends 5s of work w/ 55s of rest instead of 10s of work w/ 50s rest.
Still, for an average person, or even a good high school sprinter, that 5s makes very little difference.
I like Holler's Feed the Cats, but keep in mind that Holler is typically talking to coaches. His 10 drills in 10 minutes helps coaches fit in the drills in a limited time window AND so the coach can observe the athletes doing the drills. Also, he's working with novice HS freshmen and experienced HS sprinters/athletes. He's not working with age 50+ recreational runners.
My first-hand experience trying to do Holler's workouts is that even as a veteran runner, I had to constantly ask, "Can I handle this drill? Should I modify it to fit my injury history and age?"
For example, I do one leg jumps up stadium steps, but I hold on to the handrail just in case I don't make it! As a HS, I could recover from a skinned shin in a couple of days, but as a senior citizen, it might take a month.
