You argue that anyone could achieve the same. Yet Ingebrigtsen has just smashed a record that has stood for nearly 30 years. Despite everyone doping. Despite the fact that he may not even be as good as the past greats. And despite no one else being close. You are like a never-ending math problem insisting that 2+2=3.
Doping isn't "one size fits all". There is a considerable and changing range of what athletes use. Some will dope more than others. Some are bigger responders. It is an arms race, not a level playing-field. Jakob gives every indication of a high level of doping. To me it is now unarguable - the line he has crossed that proves it is his destroying the almost certainly doped world mark of Komen's. A clean runner could not possibly do that.
That said, there are other runners existing in Jakob's region - they even beat him, as we saw at Paris. There are others currently threatening Rudisha's incredible world mark. The women's distance events are glaringly obvious. Doping is throughout the top of the sport, as it was in baseball when 85% of pros were said to be doping (Canseco). Jakob is just the present poster boy for it.
But if you want to believe he is clean - fine, hold to your dreams - but how do you explain how he has demolished a world mark that endured for decades that was set at a time when EPO was throughout the sport and couldn't be accurately tested for? EPO and doping don't work after all?
I think Jakob is doping too BUT Armstronglivs, you can come across a bit inauthentic if you are using the 7:17 as evidence of doping, when you have been beating this drum for years, including about Jakob.
Doping isn't "one size fits all". There is a considerable and changing range of what athletes use. Some will dope more than others. Some are bigger responders. It is an arms race, not a level playing-field. Jakob gives every indication of a high level of doping. To me it is now unarguable - the line he has crossed that proves it is his destroying the almost certainly doped world mark of Komen's. A clean runner could not possibly do that.
That said, there are other runners existing in Jakob's region - they even beat him, as we saw at Paris. There are others currently threatening Rudisha's incredible world mark. The women's distance events are glaringly obvious. Doping is throughout the top of the sport, as it was in baseball when 85% of pros were said to be doping (Canseco). Jakob is just the present poster boy for it.
But if you want to believe he is clean - fine, hold to your dreams - but how do you explain how he has demolished a world mark that endured for decades that was set at a time when EPO was throughout the sport and couldn't be accurately tested for? EPO and doping don't work after all?
I think Jakob is doping too BUT Armstronglivs, you can come across a bit inauthentic if you are using the 7:17 as evidence of doping, when you have been beating this drum for years, including about Jakob.
You mistake me. I have been suggesting Ingebrigtsen has been doping for years - as you say. I simply regard his 7:17 as further confirmation of that. The essential reason is that I don't believe a clean athlete can destroy a very likely doped wr and one that was regarded as perhaps the toughest in the book.
If Ingebrigtsen isn't doping he could conceivably have run as fast as 7:02 if he had doped (as Komen was widely believed to be). So two 3:31's back to back. I think two times 3:38.8 is evidence enough.
But if you want to believe he is clean - fine, hold to your dreams - but how do you explain how he has demolished a world mark that endured for decades that was set at a time when EPO was throughout the sport and couldn't be accurately tested for? EPO and doping don't work after all?
It seems as if you think the training that was done in the EPO era was just as good as what is being done today. That's not true. Nor will you necessarily become a good runner by taking EPO. Lance Armstrong knows.
Jakob has been the best in the world at his age since he was 14. He has had a gradual progress throughout his life. Why and when should he start doping?
I don't know for certain who is the most physically talented male distance runner of all time, but if it isn't Daniel Komen then I don't who it is?
Read up on his training. He trained like a high school athlete. Either way too hard, or not enough. Sometimes he would enter the training season way way overweight. The man had a hard upbrining and lived hard. No athlete has a better ratio of bad training to success as daniel komen.
If Daniel had trained in a methodical way and had the personality to live like recluse and obssess over training/performance then the world record would have been 10-20 seconds lower. I really doubt Daniel doped honestly.
I honestly don't believe Jakob is doping. He is extremely talented but he has a training system that allows him to reach his potential. Lactate, Heart rate, the best coaches, the best science, the best training venues and partners. Daniel never had anything close.
I kind of believe Renato on this one. For the 1/billion talent, doping kind of isn't necessary. They can do amazing things on talent along. Daniel was a 1/billion talent.
* Anti-Doping Norway is known for taking its role very seriously. They even purchased mobile homes during COVID to ensure top athletes continued to be tested, unlike many other countries where the level of testing was at an absolute minimum.
But if you want to believe he is clean - fine, hold to your dreams - but how do you explain how he has demolished a world mark that endured for decades that was set at a time when EPO was throughout the sport and couldn't be accurately tested for? EPO and doping don't work after all?
It seems as if you think the training that was done in the EPO era was just as good as what is being done today. That's not true. Nor will you necessarily become a good runner by taking EPO. Lance Armstrong knows.
Jakob has been the best in the world at his age since he was 14. He has had a gradual progress throughout his life. Why and when should he start doping?
So explain how training today is different from what Komen, Bekele and El G (whose records still stand) were doing? Can you also explain how a clean runner can still beat comparable athletes who are doped to the gills? Doping doesn't work?
Ingebrigtsen could have been given peds at virtually any stage he started the sport. Doping is known to occur in schools. Most of the very best athletes were not the best in the world at 14 or at any stage in their teens. Precocity isn't determinative of the level an athlete will achieve in their maturity. Some early talents never amount to anything.
I don't know for certain who is the most physically talented male distance runner of all time, but if it isn't Daniel Komen then I don't who it is?
Read up on his training. He trained like a high school athlete. Either way too hard, or not enough. Sometimes he would enter the training season way way overweight. The man had a hard upbrining and lived hard. No athlete has a better ratio of bad training to success as daniel komen.
If Daniel had trained in a methodical way and had the personality to live like recluse and obssess over training/performance then the world record would have been 10-20 seconds lower. I really doubt Daniel doped honestly.
I honestly don't believe Jakob is doping. He is extremely talented but he has a training system that allows him to reach his potential. Lactate, Heart rate, the best coaches, the best science, the best training venues and partners. Daniel never had anything close.
I kind of believe Renato on this one. For the 1/billion talent, doping kind of isn't necessary. They can do amazing things on talent along. Daniel was a 1/billion talent.
You can choose to believe they were or are clean but what isn't credible is that they could outstrip the very best dopers. We have seen that doping can have a very significant effect on performance - Katir dropped 8 seconds in a year in the 1500. If he had been a 3:34 runner clean he would have thus run 3:26 doped. So he would be faster than Ingebrigtsen or Komen. We see women runners, like Bell, lopping an incredible 14 seconds off in a year to run one of the fastest times in history. There is no way that a "clean" Komen or Ingebrigtsen could be better than athletes of championship ability who dope to the gills. That is why the sport is full of doping at championship level.
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Makes no sense what so ever, as always. If it was that easy, why is Ingebrigtsen so dominant? Exclusive access to high-tech doping?
He isn't as dominant as you think. He doesn't have the world records for the 1500 and the mile. He has yet to win a WC 1500 final and has repeatedly lost to Kerr in their last meetings (including the Olympics, where 3 runners finished in front of him).
Most top runners today are doping. They are all talented. The drugs they take are intended to give them the edge over their competition. Sometimes it will, sometimes not - because it is an "arms race".
I don't say Ingebrigtsen is alone with his doping - he isn't - but these latest performances are a flagrant demonstration of it. Over 3 seconds faster than a likely EPO fueled record. At that level it isn't possible for a clean athlete.
If you think most top runners today are doping why do you even bother to follow the sport? I wouldn't want to watch the Olympics or the Diamond League if I thought it was all a sham. I have to think runners like Grant, Jacob and Kipchoge are clean, or else why bother watching.
It seems as if you think the training that was done in the EPO era was just as good as what is being done today. That's not true. Nor will you necessarily become a good runner by taking EPO. Lance Armstrong knows.
Jakob has been the best in the world at his age since he was 14. He has had a gradual progress throughout his life. Why and when should he start doping?
So explain how training today is different from what Komen, Bekele and El G (whose records still stand) were doing? Can you also explain how a clean runner can still beat comparable athletes who are doped to the gills? Doping doesn't work?
Ingebrigtsen could have been given peds at virtually any stage he started the sport. Doping is known to occur in schools. Most of the very best athletes were not the best in the world at 14 or at any stage in their teens. Precocity isn't determinative of the level an athlete will achieve in their maturity. Some early talents never amount to anything.
You are so cynical. Shoes are better, tracks are better, training is better. Plus each generation usually advances beyond previous ones. They are, for the most part, bigger, faster and stronger. Look at the size of football players compared to previous generations. Or basketball players.
He isn't as dominant as you think. He doesn't have the world records for the 1500 and the mile. He has yet to win a WC 1500 final and has repeatedly lost to Kerr in their last meetings (including the Olympics, where 3 runners finished in front of him).
Most top runners today are doping. They are all talented. The drugs they take are intended to give them the edge over their competition. Sometimes it will, sometimes not - because it is an "arms race".
I don't say Ingebrigtsen is alone with his doping - he isn't - but these latest performances are a flagrant demonstration of it. Over 3 seconds faster than a likely EPO fueled record. At that level it isn't possible for a clean athlete.
If you think most top runners today are doping why do you even bother to follow the sport? I wouldn't want to watch the Olympics or the Diamond League if I thought it was all a sham. I have to think runners like Grant, Jacob and Kipchoge are clean, or else why bother watching.
I also follow the US elections and events in Ukraine and Gaza. I don't need to be a fan of anyone to observe what is happening in the world around me. What I see is what has happened to professional sport. My purpose here is to communicate that because we live in a world of denial of truth.
If you want to know what I enjoy it is recreational sport with my friends and cultural interests that have nothing to do with sport.
So explain how training today is different from what Komen, Bekele and El G (whose records still stand) were doing? Can you also explain how a clean runner can still beat comparable athletes who are doped to the gills? Doping doesn't work?
Ingebrigtsen could have been given peds at virtually any stage he started the sport. Doping is known to occur in schools. Most of the very best athletes were not the best in the world at 14 or at any stage in their teens. Precocity isn't determinative of the level an athlete will achieve in their maturity. Some early talents never amount to anything.
You are so cynical. Shoes are better, tracks are better, training is better. Plus each generation usually advances beyond previous ones. They are, for the most part, bigger, faster and stronger. Look at the size of football players compared to previous generations. Or basketball players.
Runners aren't better by getting bigger. You are simply assuming training etc has improved in the last 30 years and to the extent it enables clean athletes to be better than the best doped athletes, past or present. It is a poorly informed and wilfully naive perspective. Exactly what are these "improvements" you speak of?
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I can't say for sure if he is drug free, we have to consider that the record he just broke had stood for decades. In addition, most people believed Komen's record to be untouchable. Even with the most vigorous testing some athletes find a way to fool the testers. It's a game of cat and mouse.
I don't want to add race to the equation but Ingerbeitsen is a white boy. I put my money on the black dude any day. His glory won't last long.
Ingerbritsen is just another flash in the pan, here today and quickly forgotten.
The real champions are those runners like Bekele and Kipchoge that have been timeless.
I watched all the Team Ingebrigtsen's and he was just born with this the same way Michael Jordan was born with his drive and skills. The only reason there is some doubt only at Letsrun, is that he is a white man dominating in what has been a black African world for the last 40 years. A white distance runner should not be beating Africans. Great white distance runners have been as rare as white "American born" NBA players. But then came Steve Nash from Canada and Dirk and all the European white basketball players including
Nikola Nikola Jokić and no one talks about that anymore at at least in the NBA. I think some credit also goes to his father.
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