So in this case do we give zero benefit of the doubt to the guy who earned the better spot on the track? (Giles).
You earn a finish position, nothing else. To be honest, Giles kicking hard for home with 200 to go and then blowing up and slowing down in the final 100 shouldn't 'earn' him anything. There are countless instances of people 'earning' a track position early and then simply getting in the way or blowing up to a degree that is literally dangerous to other competitors.
Completely disagree. What I see is Kerr trying to get through a space that isn't there
I refuse to believe anyone could watch that race and suggest Giles didn't leave an enormous gap on the inside; watching it live it looked like one of the safest inside passes you could hope for in the final 100. The fact that it ended in a collision was so surprising that even the commentators suggested Giles blocked Kerr's approach on 'instinct'. Having watched the replay a couple of times, I think Giles just inadvertently veered. Kerr will be pretty pissed about that as he looked like he was finishing very strongly, potentially for the win.
Giles never left lane 1 and Kerr gambled on there being room when there wasn't. Once that was the case he should've realized his mistake and given up the win, instead he tried to barge through and took Giles out. Selfish and unnecessary.
Completely disagree. What I see is Kerr trying to get through a space that isn't there
I refuse to believe anyone could watch that race and suggest Giles didn't leave an enormous gap on the inside; watching it live it looked like one of the safest inside passes you could hope for in the final 100. The fact that it ended in a collision was so surprising that even the commentators suggested Giles blocked Kerr's approach on 'instinct'. Having watched the replay a couple of times, I think Giles just inadvertently veered. Kerr will be pretty pissed about that as he looked like he was finishing very strongly, potentially for the win.
He did leave a gap - yes, nobody is disputing that. Enormous? Ughh, okay. So a lane is what 1.2m wide or about 4 feet. Giles is running in lane one right - no he's not on the inside on lane one but he's in it. So he's what, 20 inches wide shoulder to shoulder and his arms are swinging so his "footprint" is wider than that. Do the math - is that an enormous gap? I don't think so. At an absolute minimum half of that lane has a moving body in it.
The first point of contact with Giles's left arm happend at 1.38.5 which is well before the actual carnage at 1.39.4. Yeah Giles starts moving left, but as I tried to explain this is because he's been bought off balance by the contact and trying to find it again. This isn't a guy running 200m float repeats in 27 - he's absolutely flat to the boards in oxygen debt wading though fatigue - I can't believe people aren't taking this into account. I don't think it takes much (in fact I know from experience) to pull you off balance at this point of an 800m race.
Giles veering is inadvertent in the sense it wasn't an attempt to block Kerr (also because Giles is an experienced guy and a nice guy) - it's inadvertent in the sense it was purely a reaction to keep him in some sort of balance which he is entitled to do.
He did leave a gap - yes, nobody is disputing that. Enormous? Ughh, okay. So a lane is what 1.2m wide or about 4 feet. Giles is running in lane one right - no he's not on the inside on lane one but he's in it. So he's what, 20 inches wide shoulder to shoulder and his arms are swinging so his "footprint" is wider than that. Do the math - is that an enormous gap? I don't think so. At an absolute minimum half of that lane has a moving body in it.
The first point of contact with Giles's left arm happend at 1.38.5 which is well before the actual carnage at 1.39.4. Yeah Giles starts moving left, but as I tried to explain this is because he's been bought off balance by the contact and trying to find it again. This isn't a guy running 200m float repeats in 27 - he's absolutely flat to the boards in oxygen debt wading though fatigue - I can't believe people aren't taking this into account. I don't think it takes much (in fact I know from experience) to pull you off balance at this point of an 800m race.
Giles veering is inadvertent in the sense it wasn't an attempt to block Kerr (also because Giles is an experienced guy and a nice guy) - it's inadvertent in the sense it was purely a reaction to keep him in some sort of balance which he is entitled to do.
See image above- Giles left foot is much closer to the line of lane 2 than the rail, that is a substantial gap for an inside pass. Everything else you've said I didn't actually dispute, I already said it looked inadvertent.
I refuse to believe anyone could watch that race and suggest Giles didn't leave an enormous gap on the inside; watching it live it looked like one of the safest inside passes you could hope for in the final 100. The fact that it ended in a collision was so surprising that even the commentators suggested Giles blocked Kerr's approach on 'instinct'. Having watched the replay a couple of times, I think Giles just inadvertently veered. Kerr will be pretty pissed about that as he looked like he was finishing very strongly, potentially for the win.
He did leave a gap - yes, nobody is disputing that. Enormous? Ughh, okay. So a lane is what 1.2m wide or about 4 feet. Giles is running in lane one right - no he's not on the inside on lane one but he's in it. So he's what, 20 inches wide shoulder to shoulder and his arms are swinging so his "footprint" is wider than that. Do the math - is that an enormous gap? I don't think so. At an absolute minimum half of that lane has a moving body in it.
The first point of contact with Giles's left arm happend at 1.38.5 which is well before the actual carnage at 1.39.4. Yeah Giles starts moving left, but as I tried to explain this is because he's been bought off balance by the contact and trying to find it again. This isn't a guy running 200m float repeats in 27 - he's absolutely flat to the boards in oxygen debt wading though fatigue - I can't believe people aren't taking this into account. I don't think it takes much (in fact I know from experience) to pull you off balance at this point of an 800m race.
Giles veering is inadvertent in the sense it wasn't an attempt to block Kerr (also because Giles is an experienced guy and a nice guy) - it's inadvertent in the sense it was purely a reaction to keep him in some sort of balance which he is entitled to do.
Giles was running to the outside of his lane in the finishing straight to make the eventual winner and runner up go round him. But he also wanted to stop Kerr re-passing him on the inside. He was all over the track because his tactics are more about preventing other runners getting past him than running fast in the finishing straight when it counts and he had already given his maximum effort to get past Kerr 200m out.
If he had'nt got into a personal battle and surged past Kerr with 200m to go, he might have had more left for the finishing straight. Giles used far too much power too early and then ran out of steam before the finish as usual. Unfortunately this time it ruined the race - he also impeded the third paced runner, who had to hurdle him, because Giles off course managed to sprawl over lane 2 and nearly into lane 3 when he fell.
I do think some of this was deliberate on Giles' part.
I watched the video. Giles senses Kerr is about to pass him and goes to the rail.
I'm no Kerr fan, but this is not his fault.
Completely disagree. What I see is Kerr trying to get through a space that isn't there and the first contact is to Giles left elbow. From here its the same situation as the infamous Sagan v Cavendish TDF crash - when someone clips and in essence hooks that elbow you simply have to move in that direction to balance yourself - again if people can't grasp this is purely because they have never run in races like this and had this happen to them. If Kerr clipped and hooked back Giles right arm he would have lurched to the right. Well sadly it was his left arm and there is nothing inside except the infield and the rail. Again there is absolutely no chance at this stage of the race Giles has the conscious sense to be like "oh here is someone, let me just lunge across in front of them" - that's not reality, that's keyboard warrior logic.
So that's okay - we can agree to disagree on this and the other point I would make to this, is that if we have almost a situation with almost equal conflicting perspectives on who is in the wrong then the benefit of the doubt goes to the person who earned the better position on the track the other was trying to take - and that was Giles.
End of the day even if Giles was 100% in the wrong - what does that help Josh Kerr if he was put out of Paris? The satisfaction of saying "well at least I wasn't the bad guy in that inconsequential UK trials 800m race". That's like riding a bike and getting hit by a car in the wrong that leaves you a paraplegic - you going to solace yourself with knowledge it wasn't your fault for the rest of your life?
Stupid games by Kerr. Really stupid.
Totally right.
I've watched this 10 times and Kerr has run in to the back of him. Gap was not there. Giles was sliding but there still wasn't enough space.
I can only guess from Kerr's viewpoint was he thought a gap was about to appear which never materialised.
Thought Kerr didn't look too smooth the whole race, though I was impressed he didn't blow up like I was expecting. Looked like he had a hitch in his stride, to be honest.
I agree this wasn't a very smart decision to race this one, but then again I'm a 4:28 mile PR from 2005
i think kerr anticipated a gap forming that never did. even without the slight move to the left, it wasn't there.
Kerr and Giles are both big guys. with the kind of arm pumping going on in the last 100 meters of an 800, there just isn't room for two guys to run in one lane, unless you are able to make yourself very small and get by them extremely quickly.
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The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Here we go again, typical LR Forum blaming the black fella.
I have a long history on here criticising when people don't stick to their racing line in the final 100 and try to block competitors from running faster, rather than running faster themselves. What colour skin they have has never factored into this criticism. I've already said that the block looked inadvertent on this occasion, but let's be honest, Giles blew his load passing Kerr at 200, and his close pass meant Kerr lost a bit of momentum and his stride got interrupted. If you froze the race a few metres before the fall and were asked to predict Giles' finishing position, I'm going with *at least* 4th, if not 6th. His form was getting wilder, his last couple of steps before contact were visibly slowing and he either sloppily veered to his left, or saw Kerr on a screen and decided on instinct that he needed to close the door.
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
1500 is a basically a lock for him in Paris and he does this.
*Going to make an edit to this one, more than one thing can be true at once.
I had originally praised him for fronting up and contact being part and parcel of the sport but yeah that's pretty stupid - that is not on Giles and what was a big crash that could have ended his Paris campaign and for nothing.
I smile at guys who point out minute nuances in athletes who are running the final 100m of arguably the toughest event physically, oxygen depraved, legs full of lactic acid and come up with "look how Giles moves his elbow those 1.5 inches to initiate contact" - I mean have some of you ever even run these distances?
Yeah Kerr sees a gap and he misjudges how much space there is. Whether or not he is fresher/stronger than Giles at this point of the race (he almost certainly is), Giles has earned his spot ahead of him and provided he doesn't make a conscious (is anything conscious at this moment of the race under the conditions I described above?) step across into space to deliberately impede someone it is up to Kerr to not attempt this move. Like tough luck - don't let guys get ahead of you (though I suspect this was really some retaliation for what happened with 200m to go).
So good on him fronting and racing, but that was dangerous and stupid. Might have cost Giles a spot in Paris and might have cost himself a spot in Paris.
Giles used the HUGE video screen parallel with the home straight to see Kerr coming up behind him and then slid to the rail to block Kerr. You wrote so much without being aware of this.
Can we just make a new rule - no passing on the inside of lane 1? If you want to go between two runners, i.e. someone in lane 1 and someone in lane 2 and there is a gap, go for it... also, if lane 1 person starts being passed by lane 2 person, and then lane 1 gets a little more run, they can pass them back (as lane 2 would have to hole their line).
I like the hold the line rule, but if never seems to actually happen... I see the leader at the turn drift out to lane 2 or sometimes 3 all the time - so if they aren't going to enforce it, then they should get rid of the rule. No one fears a DQ for the drifting, so they keep doing it.
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