... And for me proper training means a volume not inferior of 180/200 km per week, ...
And you can stop right there. There's NO WAY to maintain that volume without severely crashing your testosterone. It's simple basic physiology. Of course, now, you could bring it back up to baseline with exogenous testosterone, and then claim everything is just fine.
I already explained you that EPO works for untrained and also for trained athletes (as you define it). The body has natural limits, and chemical substances can shift that limits. E.g. anesthesia can knock you out (works for trained and untrained athletes) a snake can kill you (untrained, trained) a body builer gets huge muscles and there are a ton of other examples.
L. Armstrong is a very famous example using EPO, he was very well trained, but could still increase his performance with EPO. That falsifies your thinking in this respect, which is stupid.
The example you need, which is the one missing, is the one when distance running athletes (trained and untrained) run faster than their personal bests as a result of EPO. No doubt that EPO will work for everyone to make their blood thicker. It remains to be seen whether that can translate into even faster running performances, for athletes with already high counts of blood cells from atlitude.
Armstrong is not a good example, as he was taking a half-dozen or more other drugs.
Amplifies capacity and recovery. Performance boost will vary depending on training and recovery. We need to stop with the nonsensical assertion that it doesn't benefit some runners (conveniently the faster ones). From the premise alone that at the very least it won't hurt performance and that it's just too easy to get away with, endurance athletes will continue to have a great incentive to do it. In particular when you are poor and have nothing to lose and you know the faster runners around you are doping.
Amplifies capacity and recovery. Performance boost will vary depending on training and recovery. We need to stop with the nonsensical assertion that it doesn't benefit some runners (conveniently the faster ones). From the premise alone that at the very least it won't hurt performance and that it's just too easy to get away with, endurance athletes will continue to have a great incentive to do it. In particular when you are poor and have nothing to lose and you know the faster runners around you are doping.
There is no magic metabolism. This is the point that you people just don't understand. You have no concept of what metabolism is.
You won't get a science debate from Renato and neither will anyone get a science debate from you.
Both you and Renato are very involved in coaching, but not in the physiology behind it. Renato has some intuitive understandings that you don't have. Your beliefs are more mystical than scientific. So every argument you come up with on the subject is nothing more than circular reasoning.
... And for me proper training means a volume not inferior of 180/200 km per week, ...
And you can stop right there. There's NO WAY to maintain that volume without severely crashing your testosterone. It's simple basic physiology. Of course, now, you could bring it back up to baseline with exogenous testosterone, and then claim everything is just fine.
I wish Athletics Illustrated would start up a forum. They seem to take anti-doping far more seriously than LetsRun and likely wouldn't let these Kenyan doping apologist trolls wreck every thread.
I wish Athletics Illustrated would start up a forum. They seem to take anti-doping far more seriously than LetsRun and likely wouldn't let these Kenyan doping apologist trolls wreck every thread.
So how does Kelsall's doping obsession, political posturing and wilful ignorance of Biology make him a person you want to collaborate with?
Do you really see yourselves as moral crusaders and reformers?
How about this; Basic Biology gets taught in Schools? So then young people can ask you mealy mouthed PED endorsers some awkward questions that you are afraid to answer?
Like "where is the magic metabolic boost supposed to come from"?
You can't say "more oxygen delivery" without explaining that Bioenergetically.
It's a really obvious question that everyone ignores. So please stop acting like you're trying to police the sport, you're not, that's disingenuous. You've had enough years to address the issue.
my man, you've very clearly never tried it yourself
do 50iu/kg 3x a week for a month and get back to me on how you don't think it works
A lot of words here. But the truth is that you’ve spent a lot of time deflecting about doping in athletics. You did imply that EPO would not work for top-tier athletes.
What we’re seeing with OOC testing shows how deep and prevalent the doping problem is in East Africa and you’ve been a denier all along. Just stop trying to pretend you were on the right side all along.
Truth? Pretense? Some big words there.
Why do you suggest Canova was wrong? About what?
Who has shown that EPO "works" for "top-tier" athletes? "OOC testing" showing "deep and prevalent" does not show that.
I think you are mentally ill and/or an intellectually dishonest person based on your posts so I won’t waste my time with you.
Sophistry is not discourse. You obviously have a vested interest in supporting dopers.
The example you need, which is the one missing, is the one when distance running athletes (trained and untrained) run faster than their personal bests as a result of EPO. No doubt that EPO will work for everyone to make their blood thicker. It remains to be seen whether that can translate into even faster running performances, for athletes with already high counts of blood cells from atlitude.
Armstrong is not a good example, as he was taking a half-dozen or more other drugs.
Great idea! Please tell us how you plan to execute the study. Please outline all of the study criteria, including where you’ll recruit top tier athletes trained to their peak to openly take EPO.
Which idea? Who said study? Who said "top-tier"? I said "trained or untrained". I asked for the missing example that is comparable to the examples of anesthesia, snake bites, body builders getting huge muscles and a ton of other examples.
You also misstate who bears any burden here. It is the one who wants to argue a relation exists between two things to bear the burden of establishing that relation, as well as disproving the null hypothesis (i.e. the claim that the effect being studied does not exist). It is not up to me to "prove" the null hypothesis.
This may be difficult to establish, but that does not reduce or relieve the burden on the one who claims that a relation exists.
The example you need, which is the one missing, is the one when distance running athletes (trained and untrained) run faster than their personal bests as a result of EPO.
Hard to argue with blood-doped world records (e.g., Boulami, Kipruto, Kiptum), but I bett you will do it anyway because of your agenda here. There is also Jeptoo's blood-doped PR at an advanced age. And Ramzi. And Shobukhova. And so on.
I guess it must be hard to argue with these examples, because you failed to argue the second part: "as a result of EPO".
Wetcoast -- not everyone may realize that you are the very same author of the "athleticsillustrated" articles.
You are also working with old information from 2012. Back in 2017, after the practical experience of Sondre Moen with extended living and training at altitude (223 days), running a marathon in 2:05:48, Canova has expanded his claim to include non-Kenyan runners: "WHY EPO DOESN'T WORK IF YOU TRAIN AT TOP LEVEL IN ALTITUDE (Black, White, Chinese, New Zealander, Italian, there is NO POPULATION out of this rule, WHEN THE PREMISE IS TOUGH AND PROPER TRAINING)".
This makes sense, because the high altitude is already stimulating higher EPO production naturally.
You also say "clearly they are doping", but it is not clear they are doping with EPO. In fact, the Sunday Times showed us that through 2012, when Renato made that statement in your interview, that, according to the Australian scientists Ashenden and Parisotto's "off-score" calculations from a large leaked IAAF blood database, blood doping suspicion among Kenyans and Ethiopians was below the world average.
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