Isn't it time they burned the hs rulebook and started over?

Space Ghost wrote:

To DQ a kid over nonsense violations THAT DO NOT AFFECT COMPETITION and deny him/her the opportunity for experience is ridiculous. Any coach or official who insists on doing so is a pea-brain.

At a state meet, say, you do need more rules to govern behavior.

So, do you believe that the uniform rule need not be applied at a state meet, or shall we consider you a pea-brain?

It's easy to say, "It's the coach's fault" for the DQ. That is true, but sadly the coaches often do not know the rules themselves. And who suffers? Not the coach but the innocent athlete.

THIS IS CRAP! How about all the other "innocent" athletes who are put at a disadvantage because rules aren't being applied evenly. I'm tired of people throwing that statement out ... "I'm a kid person" .... as if the rest of the coaches who follow the rules aren't. I am a kid person ... actually, I'm a "kids" person .. I worry about ALL the competitors in the event, not just the one who hasn't followed the rules.

Snyde Clyde wrote:

Space Ghost wrote:

To DQ a kid over nonsense violations THAT DO NOT AFFECT COMPETITION and deny him/her the opportunity for experience is ridiculous. Any coach or official who insists on doing so is a pea-brain.

At a state meet, say, you do need more rules to govern behavior.

So, do you believe that the uniform rule need not be applied at a state meet, or shall we consider you a pea-brain?

Aaaaah, there's no escape. Clyde, I have to point out that you only reproduced part of the first paragraph above. The opening of that paragraph said:

"Small meets exist to give kids experience and to allow them chances to improve. Team scores matter little if at all."

I was drawing a distinction between small meets where the emphasis is almost entirely on kids getting experience and larger meets (i.e. a state meet) where uniformity and appearance has some relevance. So, what I was saying, if you didn't cut and paste, was not at all contradictory. I was saying that any official who officiates a high school dual meet as if it were the frickin Olympic Games is a pea-brain. I stand by that statement.

The Street wrote:

It's easy to say, "It's the coach's fault" for the DQ. That is true, but sadly the coaches often do not know the rules themselves. And who suffers? Not the coach but the innocent athlete.

THIS IS CRAP! How about all the other "innocent" athletes who are put at a disadvantage because rules aren't being applied evenly. I'm tired of people throwing that statement out ... "I'm a kid person" .... as if the rest of the coaches who follow the rules aren't. I am a kid person ... actually, I'm a "kids" person .. I worry about ALL the competitors in the event, not just the one who hasn't followed the rules.

If you can tell me one way that a kid is put a disadvantage by what another kid is wearing, I promise I'll be first in line to point out any and all uniform violations. We're not talking about false starts, lane violations. We're talking about clothing.

Space Ghost wrote:

Aaaaah, there's no escape. Clyde, I have to point out that you only reproduced part of the first paragraph above. The opening of that paragraph said:

"Small meets exist to give kids experience and to allow them chances to improve. Team scores matter little if at all."

I was drawing a distinction between small meets where the emphasis is almost entirely on kids getting experience and larger meets (i.e. a state meet) where uniformity and appearance has some relevance. So, what I was saying, if you didn't cut and paste, was not at all contradictory. I was saying that any official who officiates a high school dual meet as if it were the frickin Olympic Games is a pea-brain. I stand by that statement.

(I thought you might appreciate my use of the same editing tactic you used on one of my earlier posts when you wanted to avoid my question. If you are going to edit, don't chastise others for doing the same.)

Please correct me if I am wrong, but here is what I think you are telling us: it is okay to not enforce the uniform rule at a dual meet, but it must be enforced at a state meet. If you agree with this statement, would you mind telling us exactly where you draw the line of enforcement: tri-meets, quad-meets, league championships, invitationals, sectionals, class meets, all state meets, jr. olympics, college duals/tris, ncaa's, etc.? I'd really like to know where the rules are supposed to be applied and where we can fudge them a bit. Thanks!

How about we burn the book and start over?

(It's one thing to edit a quote to focus on only part of an earlier post, it's another thing to take away the context to make someone else's post look self-contradictory.)

(Plus, when asked, I responded to the part of your post you said I "avoided.")

Anyway, I don't care to go back over the same ground. So long.

I also coach in CT and I could refer to the other thread on the board about coaches being clueless. Track & Field has more coaches with no knowledge of the sport than any other sport in this country. Imagine a high school's precious football team hiring a coach with no football experience. There would be public outcry! Not for Track & Field. Let some of the blame fall on the coaches for not educating their athletes.

Space Ghost wrote:

(It's one thing to edit a quote to focus on only part of an earlier post, it's another thing to take away the context to make someone else's post look self-contradictory.)

(Plus, when asked, I responded to the part of your post you said I "avoided.")

Anyway, I don't care to go back over the same ground. So long.

Actually, no you didn't. You deleted the last several sentences of the post which contained the heart of the message. Apparently you did this to avoid the question which you still have not answered.

Conveniently you have done it again (!) with my last post. I'm not sure why you cannot answer a simple question. My guess is that I have put you on the spot and you have no defense for your position. Prove me wrong, sack up and answer the question.

Clyde, I'm finding this very tedious. If I were a bigger man, I'd let it go. Please look at my post at 6:44 am. You asked a question. I tried to answer with examples.

Sorry if my tone offended. I've just seen too many officials focused on minutia, and it irritates me. But here's how I would officiate at the high school level, which is what this thread is about. I would simply tell coaches at the coaches' meeting that for the most part I'm not going to be looking for uniform violations, something like this:

1. Dual Meets and Small Invites. I would tell coaches that unless they object, I'm not going to be looking for uniform violations today, except loose jewlery. I would tell them that athletes can warm up wherever they want except the throw sectors. Coaches can go wherever they want and say whatever they want during races.

2. Conference / Sectional Championships / Large invites. I would tell the coaches to make sure that relay teams have the same color shorts and the same singlet. I would say that all athletes need to be wearing school colors and an official singlet. Other than that, I'm not going to be looking for uniform violations. Coaches can go wherever they want.

3. State meet. Same as #2 above, except I would stress that if somebody files a protest about uniforms, my hands may be tied. Coaches have to stay outside the track. Athletes can probably not have access to the track to warm-up for logistical reasons.

To me it's just common sense.

Hope I sacked up (whatever that is) enough for you. If I didn't, I guess I don't care.

it's okay Space Ghost, common sense is often completely and utterly devoid on this board.

I don't want the rule book thrown out, but there needs to be some common sense in it. A couple of years ago a very good vaulter in CT got dqed because he had one of those rope braclets around his ankle. Now, the official was correct in DQing him because it was a rule, but why is that rule there? If it was a kabalah braclet it would have been ok, since it would have been religious. So, in practical track terms, whats the difference? I understand why you can't wear hoop earing or something that can be dangerous, but some common sense needs to be applied to the rule book.

Space Ghost wrote:

I would tell the coaches to make sure that relay teams have the same color shorts and the same singlet. I would say that all athletes need to be wearing school colors and an official singlet. Other than that, I'm not going to be looking for uniform violations.

What other uniform violations are there? What are you letting slide?

"If it was a kabalah braclet it would have been ok, since it would have been religious." Not true.

This is a great discussion, but one which is (in typical Let's Run style) deteriorating into a name-calling contest.

Here's my take:

Many of the rules are stupid. For example, you cannot wear jewelry but you can wear a watch, but you cannot actually use the watch. But if you can't use it, isn't it analogous to jewelry, just like a LiveStrong band? However, they are the rules that are in the book.

At dual meets, officials should allow kids to rectify rule violations--take off the earrings, fix their uniform issue, or whatever. But distinguishing between "meaningless" dual meets and state championships is a bit simplistic. Do football officials choose not to call offsides in a "meaningless" non-conference game? Now it can well be argued that would be a competitive rather than a cosmetic situation, but as Mr. Katz points out, rules exist for any number of reasons, including competition, safety, and simply making the sport appear legitimate.

My biggest frustration, as both a coach and athlete, is the uneven application of the rules. Officials will be jewelry Nazis but overlook bare midriffs, for example. And once we allow every official to pick-and-choose which rules they will enforce, we have lost all predictability. Philosophically, one of the greatest functions of the law (and of rules in sports, by extension) is that it creates a predictable world in which we know which behaviors will be accepted and which will not.

I cost our girls team a region XC championship when I ran onto a part of the course that was supposed to be off-limits. While I can quibble with the marking of the area and the clarity of the pre-meet instructions, I can accept the decision because I violated the rule. However, what makes it unacceptable to me is that the officials chose to enforce that rule, ignore others, and misinterpret some more (for example, they required that shirts be tucked in, even though the rule book only says shirts cannot expose the midriff or else must be tucked in).

Finally, we will never teach the rules to kids if we don't enforce them. They become an empty threat. Heck, if a dual meet is "meaningless," then that's when I would want a rule to be enforced so my kids could learn it when there is less at stake.

Enough for now.

"you cannot wear jewelry but you can wear a watch, but you cannot actually use the watch. " Again not true you can wear a watch and use it it is equipment. You can not wear a watch in football but you can in track and XC

If my watch tells me my pulse rate I'm DQ'd. correct?

Saw a well known , now Hall Of Fame, coach in CT threaten to DQ a girl undergoing chemo for wearing a baseball cap during a cross country meet. Tell me that's not rediculous.

AS someone else pointed out, at the same meet that the athletes were disqualified for having different logos on their shorts, numerous girls team had their shorts folded down 2-3 times at the waist and bare midriff. Go figure.

Shirts tucked in, midriffs covered, watches off, hats off, bracelets off, undergarments the same color... The rules make us deal with all this crap that has absolutely nothing to do with track and field. If it ain't a safety or competition issue, I don't want to deal with it. Obviously, kids need to be in presentable uniforms, but we're all diminished by worrying about whether somebody has tucked in his shirt. That's not why I got into coaching. How about you?

And to DQ a whole team because a coach went in the wrong sector is awful. In basketaball, that coach gets a technical foul, and loses a couple points.

The sport is simple. High school rules make it complicated.

can see a couple HS kids sitting at the lunch table:

Kid #1: "I think I'm going to go out for track this Spring."

Kid #2: "No, man, you don't want to do that. I got DQ'ed from a meet last year just because I had a stripe on the tights I wore under my uniform. That stupid rule prevented me from running in the conference meet last year. I could have won!"

Kid #1: "Are you serious? That's dumb. I guess I'll play baseball instead."

And with that, we just lost another potential track athlete.

This happened before believe it or not. I was talking to my friend who for dq'ed from a meet and told this kid that was thinking about running track. The kid said how gay it was and ended up not running at all. He had a lot of talent. He had run a 4:48 mile in gym class with no training at all. Now he is just a average joe. He was going to go to college but he didn't have the money. Maybe if the rules would have been changed he would have got a shcolarhship and been a doctor or something who knows??