Does shorter rest periods between intervals train the body to dispose of lactate faster?

Yes.

(Now, Pete, get back to work!)

Pete's boss wrote:Pete, get back to work!

Thankfully, I don't have a job or a boss. I do have a wife, but she's not here at the moment.

To pick up on HHH's question, I (personal opinion) think this would be true (i.e. mostly slower reps with shorter rest early, and some faster reps with longer rest later) for distances up to, maybe, HM, but would not necessarily be the case for marathon training, where you might want to have some 10k/5k type training and racing further removed from the marathon, and a transition back toward "mostly" aerobic work in the final run up to the marathon.

I will caveat this opinion with the confession that I've never managed to get marathon training/racing quite right for myself. Plus, I'm aware of some high level marathon runners who've kept short fast stuff right up to the taper. Probably no one rule applies to all.

malmo wrote:

pete wrote:

]I don't think I could do that workout. Or, if I did it, I wouldn't want to do it very often, because it would beat the hell out of my body.

Probably for the same reason you CAN run 5 mile tempo runs at half marathon pace. If you can run a tempo run at half marathon pace, that's a sure sign you are not training properly for the half marathon, hence, the reason why you are underperforming at that distance. A vicious circle, for sure.

Likewise, if you cannot run 10 x 400 at your mile pace with a minute rest, that's a sure sign you are not training properly for the mile -- which, might not be an issue at all, since it doesn't appear that you are actually training for the mile in the first place.

Does that make sense to you?

____________________________________________________________

malmo, I just can't figure out your reasoning for saying that runners shouldn't do tempo runs a Half Marathon pace.

Marathon runners do tempo runs up to 20 miles at Marathon pace, so why would Half Marathon tempo runs be a bad idea for someone training for a Half Marathon race?

Pete wrote:

Thankfully, I don't have a job or a boss. I do have a wife, but she's not here at the moment.

This IS your wife, buster! I've got all I can do just doing this lame office job and checking up on you at the same time. I suppose you are going to tell me you are posting online while taking a break from writing your "novel." After 5+ years of this, I'm starting to think there is no novel. Well, the free ride is over. Get down to McDonalds and start flipping some burgers. It's time you started carrying your share of the weight around here.

P.S. Don't forget to scrub the toilet and put out the garbage.

I don't think malmo is saying don't do tempo runs at half-m pace, just that 5 miles is too long. If you are able to handle HM pace for 5 miles in the middle of a heavy training week, there is likely something wrong with your training the rest of the week. A 20-minute tempo run at HM pace (or thereabouts) is a very normal lactate threshold workout once a decent have has been established. I suppose Geb would get close to 5 miles at HM pace in 20 minutes, but I don't think he'd be up for that kind of workout very often.

A little more: At 15K to half-m pace, you'll be building lactate, slowly, and somewhere a little after 20 minutes it will begin to really flood your system. Three to four miles should leave you feeling pretty good, five miles will beat you up badly and hurt the rest of your week.

I don't find them too hard at all, it's all in your head. The harder I train the fitter I get. It has always been that way for me for almost 30 years.

Pete's boss wrote:I suppose you are going to tell me you are posting online while taking a break from writing your "novel."

Cute malmo, but it's a thesis, not a novel. Started last summer, should be done in a couple more years and ready to pull my weight again in the family, thanks for asking. (Before you get all bent out of shape, I know it wasn't "you" who wrote that post. I'm not talking to "you," I'm talking to you, the "ones who do their tempos properly," hehehehe)

5 miles continuous at HM pace seems way too stressful to me, too. By the same token, you could obviously do 5 miles of HM-pasced work in a session without too much trouble if you broke it up properly.

Generally speaking, HM-pace would be fast for a tempo run. However, how can we say for certain that it would be indicative that your training is for the Half is not good (if you can do this). 5miles is not even that close to half the distance, and you often see this type of effort while working towards other distances. If a guy is running a 1500, he may do 2-3 X 800m at race pace a couple of weeks out from the race. A guy shooting for the 5000, might to a 3K at pace. It's also common to go 10-16m at Marathon goal pace as an indicator of readiness. So, again, I am not saying that it would be a regular thing, but I WOULD think you have to AT LEAST be able to do 5m at HMpace in practice before thinking you have a shot at it in a race.

Cheez Pete, your marriage is not going at all like mine. I learned a long time ago not to take things so personally and to say, "Sorry Dear" early and often.

Pete wrote:Cute malmo, but it's a thesis, not a novel.

I agree. I've always worked under the premise that LT pace= 10mi-1/2marathon pace and you should shoot for doing LT runs between 4-6 miles in distance to maximize this system. I definitely don't think that a 5 mi LT run @ 10m-1/2 marathon pace is too difficult. Especially for someone who has a good aerobic background. The pace of these runs would be @ 10-15 sec. per mile above current 10k pace, which isn't that demanding.

The key (which you alluded to and that I assumed if one was close to their race) is that the runner is aerobically fit. Most of the time I kind of cringe when tempo runs are described as 10Kpace + 10-15, because this is way to fast if your not in good shape. But, after you push that LT up and are fit, that's about right.

Tempo, temahto, temato...

Is 5 miles at half-marathon pace a good training run? Yes. Is it a tempo run? Depends on who you ask. My definition of a tempo run is a hard aerobic run you can, and I quote, "Do just about every day", with no ill effects. Try running 5 miles at half-marathon pace every day and see how you feel. If you want to look at it scientifically then look at it this way. Why do you slow down in a half-marathon? In laymen's terms: "The build up of lactic acid". Ooooooh, but I thought LT pace was before you start accumulating lactic acid. Ahhhhhh....pace + distance = fatigue. The body really doesn't work on start and stop switches. Always think in terms of progression. As your progress on this 5 mile run at half-marathon pace you'll be fine for about 20 minutes....then you'll ever so slightly begin to have more and more trouble keeping the pace. If you have trouble AT ALL, even for one moment, with the pace of a so-called tempo run then you are doing something wrong.

Here's a better tempo run:

6-7 miles: Pick up the pace to "A hard easy run" (marathon effort for those who have run a marathon and know what that effort is), continue for about 3-4 miles, the last 2-3 miles pick it up to about half-marathon effort, maybe rachet it down the last mile.

Notice, I never said anything about pace. If you're running a tempo run on a track or on a measured course then you're doing something other than a tempo run. Worry less about pace and more about how your legs feel.

Alan

All good info but way off the topic.

I guess we define it differently then. I think you can have all sorts of varying length "tempo runs" for the purposes of different events from the 5K to marathon. By your definition, I would have a hard time doing a 16m tempo run at Marathon pace as I build Lactic even at much slower paces than HMpace. I am not convinced that your progression run approach is better at training one to create less lactic or at dealing with the lactate at the speed that you're going to be racing at.

That's pretty funny that you quote yourself on the definition of a tempo run being something you can run "just about every day" with no ill-effects. Can I quote you, too (smile)?! Actually, I don't think it's likely that I will as, to me, that describes training gone awry (or maybe tempo running for someone that is currently not too fit) because it's too fast for recovery and not very good for quality. Lastly, how does where you run your effort-based tempos determine whether or not it is one??? That's just funny!

Ah.. I'm just bustin' your chops here a little, Alan. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote... I just felt like you wrote it as if a tempo runs are only tempos if done in the very narrow parameters of what you expertly doled out.

Tempo, temahto, temato...

OK... I feel guilty for continuing to take this off track. The original question was about whether or not with more or less rest is better than the other. In my opinion, you can't answer which one is "better" without knowing what the runner NEEDS in order to prepare the race. Long (5min) recoveries certainly allow many people (who aren't sp great aerobically) get away with paces that they absolutely coudn't string together in a race. So, for most people, a slightly slower pace with shorter recoveries would keep this in check (and be preferred). However, that might not be the right approach for a person who's already very aerobically fit... so much so that they almost can't tell much a difference between a 1-2min and a 5min break. If that's the case, then it's very possible that a harder effort (with longer recoveries) would be preferred (esp if a 5K is the goal race). On top of all this, you also have to look at what all else the runner is doing because it is never about ONE workout, but rather the whole training package.

Alan,

You seem to always have something positive to add. Just wanted to say thanks for your contributions, I always find them informative.

Matt

Thanks Matt.

That's only because I've done things about 1000 different ways and at least know what doesn't work...:)

Taking this again waaaaay off the original topic, but a good one anyway...

Raise your hand if you think LT and Tempo have become the new Vo2max? *raises hand* You know...the kind of thing people get too carried away with. Too often runners worry about this variable and that variable when they lose track of the end game...RACING...:) Why do you run a 5 mile tempo run? At what pace? Why? Well...if I have a 10 mile race coming up I'll run that 5 mile at 10 mile pace...that's a good work out to prepare for the race. Likewise, if I have a half-marathon race coming up I'll run a 6 mile tempo at half-marathon pace. And....if I have a 10k race coming up I'll run 3 miles at 10k pace. Not difficult enough? Add a few fast 400s afterwards. So, if I'm training for multiple distances, like most road racers, with the end game being a marathon I'll put together a 6-7 mile tempo that starts at marathon pace and cycles through every other pace down to sprinting the last block.

Why do runners run 400s or 800s? Why do marathoners run 400s or 800s? To increase Vo2max? Nope. To get faster. For a track runners 400s and 800s serve a specific purpose...run at race pace. For longer races they serve a slightly different purpose because the actual pace loses it's significance. Intervals and prolonged fast running in general raises your body (heart, lunges, muscles) to its maximum capacity to do work. Whether you're a 5k runner or a marathoner runner that is important. Too often too many runners and scientists take a micro look at training and lose the macro sense.

Alan