Why don't people train at the highest altitude?

I’m the HS distance coach for track in Salida, which has the closest tartan track to Leadville. In addition to the dozen or so nearby MUT pros that call this area home, we also get a few shorter-distance folks that move here for training sometimes. For the longer distances, the fact that Courtney Dauwalter lives in Pb tells you all you need to know about whether extreme altitude works. For shorter distances, logistical challenges abound. No good tracks within an hour (and even that is over 7000 ft.); few smooth fast surfaces; nothing is flat or close to it; it’s winter 8 months a year; no training partners, no Alter-G treadmill or high-end equipment that pros use. And if you’re not used to very high altitude, your sleep will be compromised for at least the first few months. And for anyone looking to compete on the track, the only time Pb is runnable (May-October) is the time when athletes need to be training with specificity for their events. So I don’t know how a track athlete would make this work.

I think it would be possible for a motivated marathoner to try this. I’m pretty sure Shorter and Galloway (and maybe others?) used to do 3 a days up in Vail (which is over 8000 ft) and then drive to the front range for quality sessions a couple of days a week. No reason that couldn’t work in Pb, too. In fact, I’d bet it would be a dynamite strategy for a fall marathon. Salida’s track is only 10 years old, so that’s a new resource. But it should probably be viewed as a 2-year experiment for the sleep issues mentioned by the other posters.

I lived in Deer Valley (a mile up the street from Park City at 6570ft elevation) after I graduated college. Sometimes I would drive up the hill to the top of Guardsman Pass (elevation 9717 feet) and run up there. Honestly, once I'd adapted to Deer Valley, I didn't notice the difference in elevation from a tiredness perspective but it was really impossible to tell the pace up there because the path was never flat.

One thing that is a problem up at those altitudes (especially Guardsman Pass) is that you can't go anywhere and have a flat run. At Guardsman Pass there were trails kind of all over the place. All of them go downhill continuously (you're on a fricken mountain!). Then you have to come back up. So I only went up to Guardsman a couple times because it sucks to go 3-4 miles downhill and then have to come back up 3-4 miles uphill. Also, once you got a little ways away from the mountain bike crowd up there, you start to hear big wildlife and wonder if a bear or moose is about to pop out of the forest.

Even down in Park City itself, there was a rail trail but it was slight gradual downhill all the way out. So you'd have a nice rhythm going and then hit the turnaround point and then you'd have to grind back uphill for miles (often into the wind).

When the winter hit, I moved downtown to SLC because the commute was unreliable and being a new hire I didn't want to be late for work because of road conditions on I80. I found that my running popped when I got downtown. Maybe it was the 6 months of living at high altitude, followed by moving down a couple thousand feet and now my training felt fast because I had been used to running at 6000ft. Or maybe SLC (4500 ft) was the ideal altitude.

Every so often I'd visit home (Seattle) and the runs I did at sea level were amazing after living in SLC. I don't think you need to go much above 5000 ft. to get what you need.

I'd imagine there is a diminishing returns thing. Taking it to the extreme, imagine you build a track on the top of Mt. Everest and you go to do a set of intervals. Even if you are acclimated (RBCs aplenty) you're probably taking one or two steps, stopping to catch some air, and then taking a couple more steps. Obviously the muscular adaptation you get from this workout is not as beneficial as running faster intervals at sea level, or below. For each anaerobic (100m) and aerobic (marathon) distance, there is probably an ideal training altitude, and possibly it's different for each person. Interesting question!

Altitude scales in an exponential way, so the difference between 7,000ft and 8,000ft is a much harder jump than the difference between 4,000 and 5,000. Eventually I think most people hit a tipping point where the benefits of altitude are vastly outweighed by degradation of their training speeds and ability to recover.

Dauwalter is an outlier in many ways, I wouldn't try to draw any broader conclusions from her experience. She's also training mainly for races that are 20 hours or longer so her physiological needs are completely different from Grant Fisher's.

I lived in Potosi, Bolivia at over 13,000 feet for a summer exchange program back in high school. The two best distance runners ever by far at my high school were Americans who had grown up at 15,000 feet in the Andes, so I thought this would be a good idea. At the time, my mileage was very limited, in the 20s or 30s, and I typically got injured every week or two. Moreover, Potosi's streets were cobblestone and very uneven and I didn't really have the ability to run in them. To get out to the countryside with unlimited trails going off in the altiplano would take at least an hour and you just couldn't run at all in the outskirts of the city because it was a large shanty-town with all kinds of loose strays that would charge you if you ran. So, the only place I could run was down at the soccer stadium track in the lower section of town. I had altitude sickness only the first day or two after the plane flight up from Santa Cruz (Bolivia) after I played 1 on 4 basketball. They gave me mate de coca tea to make me feel better and it worked. One of my fellow AFS students, who was from Carl Lewis's hometown, was sick the entire month and we never saw her. I didn't have trouble sleeping as far as I can remember. My diet was mostly burgers with a fried egg on top and a kind of banana milkshake or rice, spicy peppers and meat. I would do intervals on the track most days because it was so hard to run distance. It was always about all I could do after these workouts to walk back up to the plaza in town where the youth hung out. At the time, I had a 5:06 mile pr and at the end of my time in Potosi, I spiked up and ran a 6:13 mile on the track. When I got down to Sucre at 8,000 feet, however, I felt fantastic and did laps around the town park feeling very fast. Upon my return to California, I set all sorts of personal records for my regular runs and felt like nothing was holding me back. That year, when I was healthy I improved and was xc mvp and despite bad tactics at leagues where I didn't move on, I beat the 4th place finisher in the county by 2 minutes at the Nike San Francisco half marathon in 1:22:04, which was about the same pace as I ran the mile in Potosi at 13,000 feet.

Are you looking to get this thread deleted? You're not allowed to mention Everest. You may ask why the mods would have such a rule. I can't answer; I just know that it is. Earlier posts way back on page 1 mentioning Everest were deleted. I am not kidding. Neither are the mods.

These are interesting points. The non-summer weather in the mid rockies should not be under considered. I don't know what a mid-distance athlete would be doing up there without a real strategy to modulate altitude for fast work. You can't drive to low altitude in CO. You've seen mid-d athletes during altitude stints in Flagstaff drive down to Cottonwood (3500') for track work. Smart. Southern California has some useful altitude with short drives (under an hour) to low tracks. Brenda Martinez did quite well in the 800m, living in Big Bear (6750') and going down the hill to the Inland Empire for workouts. It could be done out of Lake Arrowhead (5200') as well, and also Pine Mountain Club (neighborhoods up to 6400') and Wrightwood (5900'). I'm a little surprised to not see more mid-d pros utilize Southern California for that.

You are correct, sir. Fun fact -- there are several nights of hard frost in JULY in Leadville each year. And there are weeks at a time when it dips below -20 Fahrenheit at night. And periodically you get snowed in where only tracked vehicles can get in or out for several days at a time. It is a gorgeous place to live, if you can make your peace with the weather.

Uh. . . Courtney is running 100-mile races, and most of those are at altitude, so yes, it makes sense for her.

Not for someone training for the 1500 m in Paris. Two entirely different sports.

In my experience, most people who move to altitude forget to slow down… how many times do you see a college runner guy, maybe a D2 or D3 runner just trying to get better , running 7 minutes per mile at sea level as “super easy” pace (they will brag that anything slower than like 7min is too slow, and that it feels easy ) and then they get to altitude in Boulder, Flagstaff for a training stint and they still try to run close to seven minute pace, and then wonder why they are so freaking tired all the time?

Also, some of the local coaches in those areas don’t adjust the goal workout race paces to account for altitude (or don’t seem to). I think they struggle with the math, some of them anyway.

Well, there just isn't that much room at the very highest elevation, you see. And it's cold. Essentially a person would be confined to hopping around in a circle. Very monotonous, even with the stunning views of Nepal and Tibet. I hope this helps.

It may be hard for you to conceptualize how little room there is at the top of the mountain. In general, it's bigger near the base and gets smaller as you go up.

Think of it like a cone. Or a birthday hat.

I don't feel like we're done talking about this. Bump...

Won't work, the sudden increase and decrease in partial pressure of oxygen going up and down in less than a 10 minutes as opposed to a walk down the mountain or a car ride will kill sport performance.

Train low live high goes against the laws of fluid dynamics. Constantly fluctuating systems experience more stress and wear and tear. The same is with the human body.

I agree, I haven't been to Leadville, but somewhere similar. I was in Tibet on the border with China/India and it was 3500m in Lhasa 2 decades ago. It was rough man. I did a couple runs and my legs felt like heavy stones, my lungs struggled to get in any air. This was even after 2 weeks. But then something happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One day I went to run in some rural lake outside Lhasa which was further away and more isolated. I do mean further away and more isolated from anthropogenic RF and EMF antennas. And I was shocked to find my legs gaining speed and feeling lighter, and my lungs breathing easier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I pray to God that it was really an eye-opener for me then because I'm like no way this reversal is happening!!!!! I employed from then on 'live city train rural' rather than the 'train low live high'!!!!!! Everyday to be exact!!!

For the next 2 weeks I ran like magic at 3500m-3700m of altitude. Leg turnover and speed wasn't like those at sea level but boy was I moving big time relative to 2 weeks earlier just by a simple relocation of my training location from Lhasa city to 10-20km away in some lake trail off the beaten path devoid of anthropogenic RF and EMF exposure!!!

I was smiling gleefully with each step and stride and singing tunes to myself because of how easy it now feels relative to 2 weeks ago!!! My body was bang on working and adapting perfectly without anthropogenic RF and EMF exposures at altitude!!!!

I increase volume from 30min runs to 1hr daily, at the same speeds around 8min mile pace and I wasn't tired anymore. I felt like I could go faster so I wind it up only in the last 5minutes to probably 7min pace. I did some hill workouts in Tibet as well, at 3700m above the lake. It was a gentle gradient of about 5 degrees. I master what I thought to be a full out sprint for my 150 hill reps and I liked the way my legs were turning over compared to struggling to run 8min miles 2 weeks earlier.

All in all my 5 weeks stay in Tibet at 3500-3700m started bad but ended miraculous and why so???? It's all because I treated anthropogenic RF and EMF exposure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simple as ABC baby!!!

Later I wanted to travel to Pakistan from Tibet via the himalayan mountain passes but didn't have enough time before my flight back home.

Trust me bruh, I really am a game-changing runner with game-changing running knowledge hitherto still not accessible to 99.99999% of the running population.

It ain't nothing to do with the altitude. It's all about the amount of anthropogenic RF and EMF exposure you expose yourself to. My experience training at crazy high altitude in Tibet 3500m-3700m without going down to lower altitudes was simply magical and eye-opener, the kinds you probably only see in fictional disney narratives like Alice in Wonderland except, it's anything but fictional!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I experienced was too good to be true, IT SEEMS, but yet it happened and I experienced it!!!

2 or 3 decades ago I switched my training location in Tibet from Lhasa City to some rural lake 45minutes away by car, an area not cover by mobile cellular service. At that time it was 2G/3G in the early 2000s!!! Just that simple adjustment had me gaining new lungs, new speed, new legs JUST LIKE THAT LIKE MAGIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I swear, I ain't lying here. I was running slower, of course, but it was a kind of slow that isn't dreadful and oppressive, there was blood circulation in my brain and legs, I had endorphins, I had dopamine, I was moving with energy and brain concentration in the zone EVEN IF SLOWER THAN SEA LEVEL!!!!! As opposed to running in Lhasa city with all the anthropogenic electricity and radiation around me.

I hope I have also proven rekrunner wrong with my unfalsifiable scientific epitome experience that anthropogenic RF and EMF is the significant and relevant factor in sport performance, not altitude because I virtually overcame altitude with just a magical switch in anthropogenic RF and EMF exposure.

Not necessary diminishing returns. Those born and raised at high altitude like Kenenisa, Jacob Kiplimo, Daniel Komen, Haile Geb all train at the same altitudes almost daily especially for aerobic long runs they do it all at 3000m-3300m or higher than where they were born, just ask Haile and Bekele will you????

Altitude is therefore not the distinguishing factor in sport performance, it's the fact that these Ethiopian, Kenyan and Ugandan greats were rather training and sleeping in an environment devoid of anthropogenic RF and EMF antennas hence exposures regardless of the altitude which decided whether they were meant to be great runners or not.

The laws of electromagnetic fields or RF and EMF are superior to all other laws of sport performance on the planet. What sport performance law cannot predict or explain like how some high altitude born persons don't end up great distance runners while some others do---- the laws of RF and EMF explain them all!!!!! Bekele, Haile, Komen and Kiplimo are just some of the great examples. They were born high enough and yet trained even higher enough with no supposed decline in their sport performance.

Bekele once said after Zurich 2009 golden league race that he dislikes running and living at sea level as he always feels 'off' when he comes down from the mountain!!!! It gets more bad the longer he stays at sea level without returning to his altitude nest where he was born and conditioned all his life!!!! But Bekele isn't highly educated person or scientist/engineer like me Khamis hence couldn't and wouldn't know but it's actually the exponential increase in anthropogenic RF and EMF antennas in modern cities and places he competes in like France, England, Italy, America etc that is making him feel 'off', AND NOT THE CHANGE IN ALTITUDE DUE TO COMING DOWN FROM A MOUNTAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you folks see where I, Khamis, am driving from?????? Do you see how I explain all the gaps in human consciousness and existence with just 1 ingenuous trick in the bag, which is the anthropogenic RF and EMF exposure trick????

You got adapted to the altitude. That had nothing to do with antennas. IDIOT!

Incorrect, I triple confirmed my findings by returning back to run in Lhasa city at the end and true enough my gains all disappeared and the lethargy and physical oppression came back in 1 swift second the moment I broke into a trot!!!! So even the laws of adaptation can be wiped out in 1 FELL SWOOP OF A SECOND OR MICRO-SECOND under irradiation from the laws of electromagnetic fields from RF and EMF!!!

Law of electromagnetic fields, as already mentioned and promised, reigns over all other human and biological laws. Other words the latter laws only exist to the extent that the former law PERMITSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen to EMF!!!!