Luis Grijalva comments on Mo Katir Suspension

Left Said Fred wrote:

Grassrunner wrote:

OK, I'm not an expert on this. But please, if you have the knowledge, please explain how difficult it is for dopers to evade the protocols. Shed some light on this subject so we can all feel comfortable that the system is working.

Firstly, the tests are incredibly sensitive in this day and age. If you’ve taken something prohibited, what is its half life? How successfully have you flushed your system? I have personally seen anti doping test results that detected banned substances in the order of inside of ten parts per billion. Furthermore, those samples are being stored for future analysis.

Secondly, the whereabouts system is rightfully onerous. Planning an hour every day where you can be found can sound simple with an unvaried schedule, and it can be for those who do exactly the same routine day in and day out. But these top athletes go to training camps, they go to competitions, they get delayed and miss flight connections. And they also may try to have some semblance of sociality outside of being an athlete. There was an accident on the motorway that delayed your journey home? You had better report it immediately, and hope your mobile is in good working order to do so. This is all part of a system in which you are very much guilty until proven innocent.

Also important is the fact that the anti doping authorities themselves aren’t complete fools (the odd fool of an anti doping control officer not withstanding). If you’ve missed a test, for whatever reason, you had better believe that you’ll be flagged for additional testing. They have the right to test you every single day should they choose. What I would suppose what happened in the case of Katir is that he was suspicious to begin with and missed one test and then a second. Thus, his out of competition testing frequency soared. And again, a sophisticated cheat such as Katir is well aware what he’s doing. I am certain that he was taking his enhancers straight after his daily availability window ended, and then would work to overhydrate himself, without the use of detectable diuretics, to flush his system as much as possible before his availability window would open up the following day. I would not be surprised if he had some self testing of some sort, which would let him know the likelihood of returning an adverse result, and if he were glowing as it’s known, ahead of his testing window, and if the tester happened to arrive, he would be quiet as a mouse and simply take the missed test, rather than risk a positive result. But after so many times, the authorities simply have more chances to catch you that third time when you’d rather accept the missed test and attempt to save face rather than risking a longer sanction.

Furthermore, the ABP is a real tool in catching longitudinal variations in biochemistry that might escape these snap shot tests. This has been instrumental in clamping down on long term cheating. It’s not to say that any one individual test can be beaten, even if that is becoming significantly more difficult, but rather that the successive weight of consistent and targeting testing is substantially more difficult to escape if you are taking something illicit.

easy peasy greasy wrote:

Come on, that's actually well documented. Just do not ever get greedy. Respect the detection limits with epo and roids, and reload always at 11 pm to be safe for 6+ hours.

You can go higher with testo if using the right source (fitting cir). Establish a good baseline at NCAA before turning pro.

Regular 200 mL blood transfusions are perfectly safe at any time of course (for men). 300 is pushing it.

Then of course you have a couple of jokers (don't hear the doorbell) if you were too daring at night, and the testers come the next morning.

Problem is of course that lots of athletes play that game, so many are tempted of pushing the limits more and more, to outdope the competition. Then you should cut back after 2 missed tests until the 1st expires. Should... See Coleman, Houlihan, Katir, ...

P.S. Posted as unregistered user for obvious reasons,

Grassrunner wrote:

Left Said Fred wrote:

Firstly, the tests are incredibly sensitive in this day and age. If you’ve taken something prohibited, what is its half life? How successfully have you flushed your system? I have personally seen anti doping test results that detected banned substances in the order of inside of ten parts per billion. Furthermore, those samples are being stored for future analysis.

Secondly, the whereabouts system is rightfully onerous. Planning an hour every day where you can be found can sound simple with an unvaried schedule, and it can be for those who do exactly the same routine day in and day out. But these top athletes go to training camps, they go to competitions, they get delayed and miss flight connections. And they also may try to have some semblance of sociality outside of being an athlete. There was an accident on the motorway that delayed your journey home? You had better report it immediately, and hope your mobile is in good working order to do so. This is all part of a system in which you are very much guilty until proven innocent.

Also important is the fact that the anti doping authorities themselves aren’t complete fools (the odd fool of an anti doping control officer not withstanding). If you’ve missed a test, for whatever reason, you had better believe that you’ll be flagged for additional testing. They have the right to test you every single day should they choose. What I would suppose what happened in the case of Katir is that he was suspicious to begin with and missed one test and then a second. Thus, his out of competition testing frequency soared. And again, a sophisticated cheat such as Katir is well aware what he’s doing. I am certain that he was taking his enhancers straight after his daily availability window ended, and then would work to overhydrate himself, without the use of detectable diuretics, to flush his system as much as possible before his availability window would open up the following day. I would not be surprised if he had some self testing of some sort, which would let him know the likelihood of returning an adverse result, and if he were glowing as it’s known, ahead of his testing window, and if the tester happened to arrive, he would be quiet as a mouse and simply take the missed test, rather than risk a positive result. But after so many times, the authorities simply have more chances to catch you that third time when you’d rather accept the missed test and attempt to save face rather than risking a longer sanction.

Furthermore, the ABP is a real tool in catching longitudinal variations in biochemistry that might escape these snap shot tests. This has been instrumental in clamping down on long term cheating. It’s not to say that any one individual test can be beaten, even if that is becoming significantly more difficult, but rather that the successive weight of consistent and targeting testing is substantially more difficult to escape if you are taking something illicit.

Look, I truly appreciate your explanation of how sophisticated of testing and oversight strategies have become, but besides the possibility that the evasion strategies are also evolving, do you not think there is also a level of corruption in the ranks of the testing organizations that will always be a factor? There are entities that have a lot at stake in their athletes, who certainly have the resources to influence testing officials to keep their athletes protected.

Left Said Fred wrote:

Grassrunner wrote:

Look, I truly appreciate your explanation of how sophisticated of testing and oversight strategies have become, but besides the possibility that the evasion strategies are also evolving, do you not think there is also a level of corruption in the ranks of the testing organizations that will always be a factor? There are entities that have a lot at stake in their athletes, who certainly have the resources to influence testing officials to keep their athletes protected.

Outside of the former Soviet bloc (absolutely corrupt) and the aforementioned Mediterranean states which have been happy to look the other way, and some of the anti-doping control officers in Africa whom have been hit or miss at professionalism, I am not generally worried about straight corruption when it comes to anti-doping controls.

My own experiences with UKAD, USADA, WADA, et cetera have all been very much by the book. I’ve witnessed and heard of laziness or squeamishness on the part of some other anti-doping control officers (for example, not witnessing the athlete fill the urine sample at eye level but rather sending them into the toilet to fill it unobserved, a clear violation of the regs). Look no further for evidence that there are no more free favours in examining the list of major stars whom have come down with positive tests. The Americans nabbed Justin Gatlin at the Kansas Relays in 2006. I can promise you, had it been ten years earlier, not one word of that would have ever seen the light of day.

Even more recently, Houlihan could not explain the source of her adverse finding. Had the anti-doping authorities simply accepted her receipt of tainted meat, she would still be racing today and the public would be none the wiser. And yet they rejected her explanation and gave a four year ban to an American star who was a genuine medal contender. Whether it was her burrito that was bad or whether it was just she whom was bad, it’s another sign that, in large parts of the world, the fox is no longer watching the henhouse.

easy peasy greasy wrote:

Come on, that's actually well documented. Just do not ever get greedy. Respect the detection limits with epo and roids, and reload always at 11 pm to be safe for 6+ hours.

You can go higher with testo if using the right source (fitting cir). Establish a good baseline at NCAA before turning pro.

Regular 200 mL blood transfusions are perfectly safe at any time of course (for men). 300 is pushing it.

Then of course you have a couple of jokers (don't hear the doorbell) if you were too daring at night, and the testers come the next morning.

Problem is of course that lots of athletes play that game, so many are tempted of pushing the limits more and more, to outdope the competition. Then you should cut back after 2 missed tests until the 1st expires. Should... See Coleman, Houlihan, Katir, ...

P.S. Posted as unregistered user for obvious reasons,

no expert for sure wrote:

Left Said Fred wrote:

My own experiences with UKAD, USADA, WADA, et cetera have all been very much by the book.

Even more recently, Houlihan could not explain the source of her adverse finding. Had the anti-doping authorities simply accepted her receipt of tainted meat, she would still be racing today and the public would be none the wiser. And yet they rejected her explanation and gave a four year ban to an American star who was a genuine medal contender. Whether it was her burrito that was bad or whether it was just she whom was bad, it’s another sign that, in large parts of the world, the fox is no longer watching the henhouse.

Clearly you are either no expert at all, or you are painting an overly rosy picture on purpose. Probably both, actually.

USADA by the book? Hahaha - remember how they were scolded by CAS not too long ago for giving warning calls to Coleman, and - lol, yes - simply accepted Wilson's receipt of meat - not tainted meat - to let her off the hook. They also screwed up Simpson's missed test, when she was in the wrong city.

Last but not least, that you are suggesting that Houlihan's artificial nandrolone may have been in her beef burrito, completely disqualifies you from any serious debate on such matters. You should also have noticed that USADA completely failed nabbing Houlihan (and Coleman and Wilson for that matter): the AIU came to the rescue, fortunately, to finally ban Houlihan and Coleman. Those are not exactly good examples for USADA being an unblemished organization that goes by the book.