Is training at altitude useless?

That isn't correct. Studies have shown blood doping increases aerobic capacity greater than altitude-training alone - and so does EPO.

Agree but I'm sure you know what I'm gonna say right, dear Armstrong?

I'm gonna say that there is one factor that beats even unnatural blood doping and EPO, and that's natural avoidance of anthropogenic RF and EMF. This factor will beat the hell out of all the other unnatural enhancement factors!

Yes, both Heat and altitude Show a benefit.

You only said that the higher quantity of newly produced RBCs is also of higher quality, when not destroyed by EMF and RF. This doesn't show that I said anything wrong. I did not give any reasons behind the improved performances or suggest it was limited solely to quantity. In fact, in your RF-King scenario, the existing RBC formed at sea-level, and exposed to EMF and RF would be all coagulated due to irradiation -- therefore, you are just agreeing that training at altitude has a "beneficial" effect on "red blood cell", for the compounded reasons of both higher quantity and higher quality.

But ultimately, you are still an anonymous nobody to me. For me to take your proposed hypothesis seriously, you have to point to something authoritative, rather than tooting your own horn.

Can you be specific? What isn't correct, exactly? Which studies, exactly? What have they shown, exactly? Otherwise, it is only your imagination, and there is nothing to discuss or rebut.

In any case, I didn't talk about the indirect proxy of aerobic capacity, which may or may not be relevant, but about time trial performance, regardless of aerobic capacity.

There is no either altitude or EPO choice -- altitude increases EPO.

Manipulation of words is your modus. EPO used as a drug exceeds the EPO produced by altitude-training and with greater effect on aerobic capacity.

In other words, you cannot be specific, and you want me to discuss and debate figments and fragments of your imagination.

Again, I didn't comment on aerobic capacity, but time-trial performance.

Incorrect, most runners that go to altitude are going there as modern young men and women already previously irradiated like crazy in their cities and districts. Upon going to altitude they therefore lack perfect adaptative capabilities because their bodies are already ELECTROCUTED (DAMAGED!!!). This means they are unable to produce higher red blood cell numbers with fuller or fullest volume and buoyancy so they basically are just producing higher cell numbers with smaller volume so that they end up with the same hematocrit ratio which according to Renato Canova stays the same for all his modern irradiated athletes born at sea level despite changes in elevation with very minor and insignificant fluctuations!

The ability of the body to transport oxygen efficiently is dependent on A RATIO which means A DELICATE BALANCE between RBC volume against total blood plasma volume!!! And blood viscosity, blood velocity, blood purity, health of endothelium etc. It has nothing to do with RBC NUMBERS as all!

Compare that to runners who were already born and raised at altitude like Kenenisa Bekele, already unexposed to anthropogenic RF and EMF from birth till adulthood or far less exposure than young American/European men and women in their respective cities and districts, it's quite obvious Kenenisa Bekele would have perfect adaptation of red blood cells with fullest volume and zero clogging or impurities in his blood.

You ask me to point to something authoritative, well I'm pointing you to Renato Canova duh! Whereas on the RF and EMF side, do I need to meet you face to face to show you how authoritative I am at RF and EMF related matters of human biology?

I don't want you to debate anything. I am simply saying you're wrong - as you usually are. Persuading you of that is of course a complete waste of time, so I don't bother.

There is no question that you cannot debate anything, whether you want to or not. This isn't about debating me, but it's about you being able to substantiate your imagination.

It is simple to say it, but I'm wrong about what, exactly? Can you be specific?

You said studies have shown blood doping increases aerobic capacity greater than altitude-training alone. I simply don't believe these studies exist that showed any such thing. If I'm wrong, which studies, exactly? What have they shown, exactly? Even then, so what? Did they show that the increased aerobic capacity lead to better distance running time-trials?

The whole point of another authority supporting what you say is to remove you as a potential filter causing distortion. For this purpose, pretend no one believes you are the expert (because this is an anonymous forum and you cannot be authenticated with an anonymous handle), and then try to convince us based on what other authenticated authorities in the RF and EMF fields are saying about biology and distance running and irradiated blood.

I don't want you to tell me what Renato said, but show me where he said it, in context. I don't want to meet you face to face, but tell me where I can find some other authority in your field saying that RF and EMF electrocution is making distance runners slower. Otherwise you stand alone.

Not sure what you want to say about hematocrit, or what you think Renato said, but in a 1997 altitude study, the athletes living at altitude increased red cell mass volume (in ml/kg) by about 9% after 4 weeks at altitude.

Renato also said that extended altitude training helps sea-level athletes, like Sondre Moens.

I came here to post this ^

i grew up in heat and humidity and i think folks are deeply confused. it makes the workout harder -- we would avoid it and train mornings or at night. if it makes the workout significantly worse then you are no longer getting the same effort in and by extension product out. as a soccer player i found running in the heat just turned your legs to jello. so what. you can try and make random arguments about how easy it is to breathe, etc., but the basic deal is the workout suffers sufficiently it is no longer equivalent.

my personal experience my best soccer year was coming off spending a week and a half at altitude. and i was already spending every summer at heat and humidity. and thinking about it now, part of it would be altitude locations, while perhaps a little warm in summer, are merely summer-y. they are not oppressive. so one can actually go full throttle plus the altitude benefit.

also, my personal experience is every hot and humid summer tournament, afternoon standalone game, afternoon workout, you literally feel sick after. you don't want to eat. you want to lie down. and that may be after trying to stay hydrated. now if i go climb everest it'll make me sick. but standard altitude training you run your workout, your lungs burn, you recover, you're fine. i am hinting that one is negative health impact where another isn't.

last, you take some midwest team fresh off 0F temps and indoor meets and training and send them to california or the gulf coast for a week. their times magically thrive. i grew up there and you run faster when it's warmer, to a point. you run slower and tighter when it's frigid. longer distance runners might like cooler days but for shorter distances warmth gets you naturally loose. you then run a couple tenths faster. training benefit, or just sprinters run faster in warmth?

re "Mr. EMF," where do you think most folks training at altitude stay while doing so? you might have the odd guy who lives in a tent at the trailhead like a free climber about to ascend el cap. but most folks "training at altitude" are not literally living all day on the mountain, they are in NAU's dorms (or equivalent) or staying in a tourist hotel, ie, in relative civilization with a significant degree of the forces you are trying to suggest disappear, wifi, 5G, power lines. they may hop in a car or run off campus to your more rugged trail someplace but they probably spend only so much time there before returning to base.

plus i don't buy the science of what you're saying anyway.

now i am aware of some XC that do a preseason camp at some park someplace, but that's different. but normal operating procedure, NAU is in flagstaff and that's 140k people. it's not NYC but it's not rural.

Look rekrunner you are now changing your story from increasing red cell numbers to red cell volume from a 1997 study? Looks like I have gotten you to admit you are wrong right? That was what I have been saying the whole damn time, including Renato Canova. Renato Canova says that increase in red cell numbers are very superficial and means nothing since these cell numbers are usually smaller and more viscous? It also means the sea level athlete hasn't been at altitude long enough (for years) to finally stop increasing cell numbers but rather increase cell volume instead?

Those athletes who only get an increase in cell numbers are tourists who are at altitude for a couple of days or weeks whereas those athletes who get an increase in volume are real sea level athletes who have been at altitude for years. But then what I'm trying to say is that even these increases in volume according to Renato might not be what he really thinks it is caused by! Sondre Moens trained in true rural Kenya in the past if I'm not wrong which is relatively devoid of anthropogenic RFs and EMFs, and yes while there is an altitude of 2000-3000m over there my superior RF and EMF knowledge tells me that it is rather the former factor that contributes overwhelmingly to increase cell volume rather than the latter! And if you aren't satisfied enough, then let me tell you that EVEN ELEVATION ABOVE EARTH'S SURFACE IS AN ELECTROMAGNETIC POTENTIAL PHENOMENA!!!

The elevation in and of itself is electrically mediated duh!!! So don't come telling me I need to show you authority about this or that precisely because the knowledge is strictly innate and innately elementary physics!!!

Sorry to blow your bubble dear rekrunner, but everything, literally everything atom/molecule or anti-atom/anti-molecule holds a damn charge with a damn field around it, so everything is by default electrically susceptible (electrocutable/reactable)!!

Pls drink that up from me because the things I say are as intuitive as the rivers that flow around rocks rather then through it!

Also if you are still so stubborn and lazy, why don't you stop waiting for me to show you publications and you rather google search RBC clotting due to 5G or RF/EMF exposure? I'm sure you get to your knowledge faster right?

And that's precisely why the folks at NAU and Flagstaff are running like sh*t compared to true rural Ethiopia and Kenya runners like Daniel Komen on lousy shoes, lousy track surfaces and zero wavelights, right?

So you already discover the answer for yourself that Flagstaff or NAU isn't a true rural hotspot like impoverished nations of Ethiopia and Kenya/Uganda but slightly better than NYC, Chicago, Washington, Boston etc which is why the guys born and raised at Flagstaff who go there for professional and college training and racing tend to perform much better than the guys from Boston, Chicago and NYC/Miami right?

Precisely Daniel Komen's abode was around the trailhead in the middle of nowhere in some savannah grassland in former Kenya far more devoid of anthropogenic RF and EMF than current day Kenya that is far more irradiated and electrified that he had accrued and adapted so much sacred bioenergy for high performance distance running back in the 1990s, right?

You know something, it is normally the spiritually dead folks who 'don't buy the science of the harmful effects of anthropogenic RF and EMF'. They are sinful, in denial, porn addicts (they need wifi and cellular data to watch porn or otherwise), perhaps drug addicts, just completely wretched and unsaved/unenlightened human beings!

I'll point out that the primary ask was for an external authority, as I'm afraid you are self-polluting your river of knowledge that you want me to drink up. It is not up to me to fact check you, but up to you to complement what you say about the relevance of RF and EMF exposure specifically to degraded athletic performance. Are there any RF/EMF studies that measured time trial performanc? It is a topic you seem passionate about, but where does it come from? Is there no one else talking about it? Similarly, you keep telling me what Renato says, but I'm not so sure he said any of that, or what he said means what you think.

You are a little confused about what is "my" story. I look at end results rather than dwell on competing hypothetical causes. My story was that altitude was beneficial to time trial performance, on the order of 3-5%. I did initially refer to an apparent "public interest" (not my interest) in "increasing RBC", recommending a method which is WADA-legal, rather than a substance/method which is not. I did not specify whether it is cell count or cell volume that increased. The 1997 study says "red cell mass volume", which again does not refer to cell count or cell volume, but mass volume. Renato often talks about MCV (Mean Corpuscle Volume) which is again something else -- telling us that East Africans have adapted to have larger MCVs while sea-level athletes produce more cells as a response to altitude exposure.

I don't believe there is any question that altitude stimulates EPO which triggers production of new red blood cells, at a rate higher than old cells are dying, which increases cell count. But in any case, that is not my story. I tend to avoid all these hypothetical middle-men explanations, and simply observe that altitude training results in desirable performance improvements, in addition to all these less interesting intermediate proxies like RBC, EPO, and VO2max.

Ok look here, dear rekrunner. I read your human soul extremely well. I know that given your type of scrupulous indeed pretentious nature (given your insane lack of remorse for Alberto Salaazar's 'crimes') you are UNLIKELY to respond favorably to any single one article that remotely or directly reference the harmful effects of anthropogenic RF and EMF on human biology (of which high-performance physiology is subject to!!!!!!!!!).

I know your type of person, I can see it in the way you argue, speak and pay homage to. I know where your allegiances lie and my out of this world psychoanalysis tells me that you are UNLIKELY indeed UNABLE to come to any consciousness in space-time that high-performance physiology, which is completely human biology, is subject second after second, day after day to the electromagnetic sunlight, to the earth's electromagnetic field, to the electromagnetic cosmic rays, indeed to therefore every single possible anthropogenic electromagnetic source on earth whether they be cellphone towers, GPS, bluetooth, WiFi, power frequency etc.

Pardon me for being so negative about you but I'm sorry I'm forced to come to such a pyschoanalytic conclusion about you after the nightmare conversation I experienced with you concerning Alberto Salaazar and how you were unbelievably nonchalant about his sins and crimes against humanity!!!

Do you think I will want to sacrifice any of my time and effort just to put a dozen or even 1 single publication about how anthropogenic RF and EMF alters any one single aspect or signalling of any one single human biological faculty or organ/cell system on the planet earth only for you to later dismiss it using the same exact two-faced and hypocritical modus operandi you exhibited towards defending Alberto Salaazar's sins and crimes against humanity???? Come on dear rekrunner, I'm not that stupid, I know human souls extremely well because of inspiration of Christ in Scripture what SIN means!!!!

Sin is an apathy and ambivalence like yours, dear rekrunner!!! So please show me some sincerity and rather school me by showing me (your RF King) publications that dismiss my claims that anthropogenic RF and EMF do not affect human biology, and by extension, human physiology which is a faculty of human biology!

There are no direct publications surrounding anthropogenic RF and EMF and high-performance endurance ability because honestly sports scientists who are responsible for making such researches are probably not half as qualified enough in the arena of electromagnetic theory and behavior to tolerate the extremely complex scale of such research. Sports scientists are the lowest caste of scientists on earth, did you know that! Nikola Tesla obviously beats Ross Tucker in terms of real electromagnetic substance, did you know?? However, I can easily fish out from the back of mind right now data from a random well known publication that shows that the tiniest levels of anthropogenic RF and EMF disarrays biological including genetic cell signaling and gene sequencing ability! But am I supposed to spoon-feed a hypocritical person like you such information only for you to abuse and dismiss it? No I'm not that stupid!!!

Now, as for Renato Canova, I have huge respect for him for obvious reasons but I again would like to emphasize that EVEN HE does not have complete knowledge and understanding of human biology hence high-performance distance running who FLAGRANTLY AND PRESUMPTUOUSLY omits the combined balance/resultant effects of NATURAL + UNNATURAL (ANTHROPOGENIC) RF and EMFs in space-time on the biology and epigenetics of a high-performance distance runner or otherwise!

Just look at Renato's treatise on previous LRC threads regarding altitude training, you can just google, in nowhere does he relate directly or show any appreciation or acknowledgement of the combined resultant/balance effects of NATURAL + UNNATURAL (ANTHROPOGENIC) RF and EMFs in space and time on the biology and epigenetics of a high-performance distance runner or otherwise, does he????

So what you are seeing here is that in an entire history of LRC or the planet earth, there is only ever 1 man, or 1 King of knowledge rather, which is me (no tooting horn here!!!) who bridges, or dares bridges the great seemingly insurmountable and even unfathomable distance or gap between high-performance physiology/biology or distance running, and, RF and EMF anthropogenic and natural combined. Actually, there is nothing daring about what I bridge here, it's supposed to be this way just like an apple is supposed to fall to the ground when you drop it from mid-air. You are SUPPOSED TO KNOW SO even without a publication saying that RF/EMF affects whether positively or negatively human biology and by extension high-performance physiology! Do you need to teach a man how to consummate his marriage with his wife or something??? Obviously not, he just knows what to do duhhhhh!!!!!

Am I a psycho or given to lunacy for bridging this disparate link or am I ingenious??? Are LRC or the folks of planet earth just too damn uninitiated to the effects of RF and EMF on all life much less on all electrical beings (indeed human beings!!!) and entities which therefore makes folks like me seemingly with some supernatural knowledge and understanding???

Am I just so 'clever' or are the folks on LRC and planet earth just so 'behind time' hence 'stupid' for not knowing these things???

In all humility, the things and relevation I say and make are 100 years of history in the making or since the turn of the 20th century and accelerated since the Cold War among the CIA, KGB, and top military institutes in those era. I'm not clever, I'm just 'fortunate' or 'lucky' to know these knowledge and be able to make attendant logic and conclusions/judgement effortlessly including making psychoanalyses on human behavior. You, dear rekrunner, like the rest of LRC folks, are simply 'less fortunate' and therefore in no way inferior in terms of IQ or EQ to folks like me!

That I am ahead of you, dear rekrunner, in the arena of RF and EMF doesn't make me 'cleverer' than you because my responsibility is to invoke in you to go in search of the knowledge YOURSELF rather than hypocritically ask for the information from me!

Thank you with much love and cheers!

I just want to re-emphasize and re-drill it in you from post #57 that height/altitude/elevation above sea level is mediated by electromagnetic pressure (fields/forces)!

The very elevation we are all talking about is electromagnetic, specifically electric or electrostatic pressure. It's a pressure, and it's electrostatic, and these electrostatic pressures are rapidly varying relative to absolute space and absolute time, but their rapid variation is also with respect or relative to the sun, to the universe and Aether specifically and doesn't change in this regard, so this rapid absolute variation doesn't mean the partial oxygen pressure at high elevation suddenly changes from one value to another. There is no relative difference!

For the earth-sun system to rapidly vary their electrostatic pressures hence electromagnetic forces that mediate between them, they both have to emit or communicate so via RF waves or Micro waves. If you didn't know this then I don't know how to make you know!

So the way high-performance human physiology behaves and reacts with RF and EMF from all natural and unnatural sources is a direct microcosm of the way the earth and sun communicate with each other, rapidly and via RF and Micro waves/photons!

Guys like you are fixated on making logical deductions 'within context' and 'within limitations' it's little wonder why you are not suited to study and appreciate the laws and behavior of electromagnetic theory! Electromagnetic theory eschews 'within context' and 'within limitations' because it's not a pretentious and hypocritical subject. It's real and highly substantial, it's avant-garde, it's advanced, it's go-go-go, there is not wait and see, timidity or shyness, no two-faced legal clauses and motions for Salaazar to hide behind. You are thus more well-suited to adjudicate pretentious and hypocritical legal proceedings in a man-made court or judicial setting.