What's hilarious and classic LRC is that posters are telling him that the answer might be running ultras! Pointing out the obvious need for speed training gets a flurry of downvotes from the committed trudgers.
That would be me and one other guy as far as I can tell. And technically, I did not tell him the answer might be running ultras. I told him a story about someone who did make a significant breakthrough at the marathon after having run an ultra. He can make what he wants from that. Aside from my post and that one other one I can find and one from Mayeroff (You're still around Jason! I have wondered what became of you.) pretty much everyone who's suggested anything, from what I can tell, has gone with the "obvious need for speed training" in some form or other. So it seemed worthwhile to mention that someone in a similar situation to the OP's made his breakthrough without going the obvious need for speed training route when he asked if anyone else has "been here." And it's interesting that the one guy posting who has "been here" and gotten beyond it is suggesting that speed training may not help and could even make things worse, which actually was along the lines of my own experiences.
Given all of that, have you actually been in the OP's spot and gotten faster in marathons?That's the distance he's asking about. Can you give an actual example or examples of someone who was stuck at a particular range of marathon times and broke through by doing a lot of speed training?
One idea that I suspect no one wants to mention is that maybe the OP has just gotten as good as he's going to get. It happens to all of us eventually. Another idea that comes to mind, which is sort of along the lines of more faster running is a story Lydiard told me about one of the better but not well known Kiwi marathoners from "my" era, a guy called Terry Manners. Manners was a big guy, along the lines of Derek Clayton, as well as a big mileage guy. He'd get as high as 160 miles a week. But for a couple years he was stuck at 2:14.
I could have lived happily being stuck there but Manners wasn't so he asked Arthur what to do. At the time Manners' fastest 5,000 was in the 14:50s I believe. Arthur told him to do a series of time trials at that distance which got him to 14:0something and shortly afterward to 2:12.It got him to the Munich Olympics. But there was no other real change as far as I know in Manners' training.
HRE - I suggested shorter/faster stuff, but mainly because I think neuromuscular training (hillsprints) yield benefits at all levels, and long 10km paced reps ala Squires (with long recovery which I'm sure Arthur would have approved of - not quite a run one/jog one, but in that direction) will benefit most distances, but I guess the idea of ultra training providing a breakthrough is no different to somebody improving their 10km pb when they start marathon training!
Doing shorter and faster stuff was the first thing that came to mind when I read the original post. But then I tried to think of an example of someone stuck in a range of marathon times who got unstuck, faster unstuck specifically, by doing that and I came up empty. That's a big reason I asked if you knew anyone for whom that really worked.
Then I thought of the guy from my old club who did the Brighton. Someone else mentioned Steve Way. I thought both of those examples were worth mentioning. (I might have gotten to Way eventually but am glad someone else did.) And then I thought about Lydiard and the Terry Manners and later remembered he'd had Jeff Julian doing the same thing before Jeff got under 2:15. Julian also ran ultras. He once had the world record for 40 miles. Maybe he still does as I'm not sure they even keep a record for that distance. I think he might have had the record for 50 miles as well but I can't find a list of 50 mile record holders.
And since I'm here again, I notice that the OP asked about whether he should bring his miles down. That's definitely worth considering. I was a three digit mileage guy for most of what I considered my best years. I had a big marathon PB in late 1975 from doing that and thought that if I kept up with that I'd surely keep getting faster so I kept on with that sort of volume for the next two years. But in those years I got no new PBs though I was running well by my standards, i.e., turning in times that I once believed were well beyond me even if they weren't PBs and I managed to win a couple otherwise insignificant races.
But as 1978 dawned I began thinking that the reason I'd been doing 100-150 weeks all those years was to see how fast I could get. The absence of any improvement in those years convinced me I had my answer. I wanted to keep competing seriously but saw no reason to keep on running as much as I'd been doing. So I went from two runs most days to one and my volume dropped to 75-90 a week. That brought a stretch of time with a few slight PBs but also a six minute improvement in the marathon.
At roughly that time there was a masters guy called Bob Schlau who was getting some attention. I can't find the exact story anymore, but essentially he'd been a triple digit miles guy for a while after he got serious about running again. He was doing okay but seemed stuck with his marathons. So he decided to let go of marathons, run fewer miles, focus on shorter races, I think 50-60 was his new range, but as I said, it's an old story. Somehow he ended up in a marathon anyway and got 2:17 something. Maybe someone reading this knows him...or is him and can give a better account.
But I have come to believe that you'll benefit from doing what's now considered really high mileage but only for a while. I'm not going to get into how long that while needs to be but I'm talking years, not months or weeks. But once you've gotten maximum benefit from that big volume stuff you won't get anymore benefit and might possibly be holding yourself back. Going back to Jeff Julian, he did massive amounts of miles in his base phase, something like 2,000 miles in ten weeks. But as he moved into his racing phase he dropped that volume A LOT. His average daily miles total for a whole year was around 11 a day. So I think the OP's idea of lowering his mileage might be worth trying if not permanently but at least in the weeks before his next marathon..
Over the past couple of years I’ve run 2:27-2:33 in the marathon, and haven’t really progressed from this. I can easily do 120-130 miles per week with a couple of workouts (mostly double threshold, because it fits my work schedule) however I’ve never been close to a sub 15 5k, and if I had to do a 200m sprint I could maybe do a couple a 31-32sec or one all out at 29.5.
Anyone else been here? Do I go down in mileage?
Well, cut some mileage would do you just fine. You don't have to run 120-130 mpw to run faster than 2:27. You would do great on half that mileage. I say 60-80 mpw would get you a better faster marathoner. If you want pro coach help just send me a message.
The old slogan ' It's not mainly about how many miles you run, it's more about how you run your miles' is a very good one. 🧙🏼♂️🖐🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
Yeah, because quality pro coaches lurk on message boards and solicit business...
Drop down in your mileage. Focus on 5km/10km training. Maybe even run some 1500/3000m races on the track. Do a long run ever 3rd week. You have to get the leg speed going to run a fast marathon. Cheers
NERunner03533 - I didn't take it as a slight at all. I had a long period of wishing I was faster at the shorter stuff but every time it came to a choice between focusing on shorter stuff and marathons I went for the marathon every time.
HRE - good point on the reducing mileage. I ran my pb by averaging 28mpw less over the last 9 weeks than when I'd been coached on high mileage a few years previously. 4 years after that, with another 14mpw less, I ran 1min outside that pb. In both cases I think the bulk of mileage I'd done over previous years provided a large part of the outcome.
NERunner03533 - I didn't take it as a slight at all. I had a long period of wishing I was faster at the shorter stuff but every time it came to a choice between focusing on shorter stuff and marathons I went for the marathon every time.
HRE - good point on the reducing mileage. I ran my pb by averaging 28mpw less over the last 9 weeks than when I'd been coached on high mileage a few years previously. 4 years after that, with another 14mpw less, I ran 1min outside that pb. In both cases I think the bulk of mileage I'd done over previous years provided a large part of the outcome.
I agree. Most of getting from 4:34 to 2:41 was just from years of 100 plus mile weeks. But I think there was only so much improvement that was going to come from that and doing something a bit different provided a new stimulus.
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