But they do offer fat need based aid. Most of the team at those schools are paying well less than $20K/year. Still a bundle, but not nearly what one would assume from the $80K price tag. For families who make significantly less than $100K/year it can be almost free.
That's not true either. Most members of those teams are paying full tuition.
4.2 GPA with 1400-1450 will not get accepted to those schools if they have to pay her 60k+ per year to attend. The schools boast they meet the demonstrated need of their students but their dirty secret is they just won't admit those students.
At a school like Williams or Hopkins, you can be accepted with much lower grades than their averages if you are paying full tuition. If you are receiving 60k per year in financial aid, you damn well better have perfect GPA, perfect SAT scores, and something special that sets you apart like you sail the ocean on weekends and collect millions of tons of trash each year.
Those coaches have a small number of recruiting slots they can use, but they would not be using them on 2:23 runners who might run 2:17. They will use them on cross country specialists that are under 18 min for full 5k on a hard xc course.
I know this because my wife works in financial aid at one of those D3 private schools (not one of the ones brought up here). We both believe those schools are a scam - she sees so many smarter students get rejected in favor of rich students because the school isn't willing to pay that much in financial aid. But she stays there because she is getting paid very well and we will qualify for tuition exchange for our children.
I don't doubt that this is true to some extent and some of that type of schools, but we've had a bunch of kids from our school, including my kids, who have gotten in to these well endowed small liberal arts schools and the most any of them are paying is $20K/year. The other kids from our school vary from pretty much nothing to about $10K/year. For most of these kids it's ended up less than their costs at the local mid-level state school would have been.
It may be that this type of situation just seems more commonplace here, being a small rural school district, but I definitely wouldn't discard the idea of this type of school before trying, if they appeal otherwise. Worst case is she doesn't get in. If she does get in, they tend to do a good job with the financial aid for those making <$120K/year or so, and very certainly for those making less than $80K/year.
There is money out there for girls.. Here are facts about my daughter a current sophomore running low level div 1.... HS pr's Jr year ( which is where scholarships come from )
3200-10:50-10:55
1600- 4:58
800 2: 18
5K TRACK 17:45-17:50
Narrowed her schools to three all were above 80 % scholarship when you combined academic and athletic ( very good student as well) with athletic being 50 -60% .
Settled on a school that using rough numbers was $50, 000. Got $30,000 athletic and $12,000. academic It was not the best offer/ cheapest option for her but the fit she wanted.
Granted these were not power 5 schools but they had $ to offer.
Exactly. Thank you!
There are plenty of opportunities out there you just have to look. And not be narrow minded.
Now watch the guy with the agenda jump in here to say you are making this up.
Yes. All 3. I agree with your perspective. The kids were state champs and on top of the world in high school but then became average D1 runners. Academics should be the priority. You run 4 years but work 40 years. I think kids enjoy almost any college which is why I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the running program. I would prioritize academics amd cost.
Something seems off. My daughter talked to several CAA schools. They had no scholarships to offer. Most said that their entire programs had only a shoestring budget. She was in contact with America East schools also and took an official visit to one. She was offered 10%. Her times are faster than your daughter and she has great references and all of the coaches loved her.
Yes. All 3. I agree with your perspective. The kids were state champs and on top of the world in high school but then became average D1 runners. Academics should be the priority. You run 4 years but work 40 years. I think kids enjoy almost any college which is why I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the running program. I would prioritize academics and cost.
I partly initiated this because I have looked into what happens to excellent women runners and the most talented seem to often be overworked (mileage), burnt out or repeatedly injured during college. I don't view us in that tier of talent. Some talent, but not that higher tier. This thread has brought together some great information.
1. School choice should be education first. As "Bother Me" said, prioritize academics and cost. By this measure a quality state university (we have a bunch) with a respectable running program is the smart choice, unless one has extra budget to pay $350K for college.
2. Many programs are good enough. Maybe the question is whether one wants to evolve as a runner during college, or just keep running. Evolving would take a specific program and coach one really is in sync with. The negative I hear is of coaches who provide one size fits all training programs (that break some people).
3. Financial incentives vary wildly even with same times, though we don't have and probably should not share detailed financial information between those posting here.
4. Superstars may not feel special athletically or as people once surrounded by other overachievers in college.
It's #3 that's confusing. What experiences do people have on this point: if you are a saver and on paper have the resources to pay full fare is it that no college will offer merit or athletic incentive? I noted calculators take into account home equity and seemingly every asset of value you have.
A friend's son recently was offered a full academic and merit based scholarship to play football at a D3 school. He will pay zero. He was a mediocre student at best, late bloomer. He's thrilled and it change his life - which is the whole idea really.
Something seems off. My daughter talked to several CAA schools. They had no scholarships to offer. Most said that their entire programs had only a shoestring budget. She was in contact with America East schools also and took an official visit to one. She was offered 10%. Her times are faster than your daughter and she has great references and all of the coaches loved her.
Which CAA and America East schools? You might have been unlucky and picked the lesser funded programs. Towson, Delaware, Northeastern, Stony Brook, Monmouth, William & Mary, and Elon have the max amount of scholarships (18) or close to it (15+).
A teammate of my daughter committed to Towson with times of 2:19, 5:11, and 11:15 and she's receiving approximately 70% scholarship (as an instate school).
I know less about the America East but a school like NJIT probably won't have as many scholarships as Albany or Lowell.
Something seems off. My daughter talked to several CAA schools. They had no scholarships to offer. Most said that their entire programs had only a shoestring budget. She was in contact with America East schools also and took an official visit to one. She was offered 10%. Her times are faster than your daughter and she has great references and all of the coaches loved her.
As the username implies.. the that's not possible guy^
Yes. All 3. I agree with your perspective. The kids were state champs and on top of the world in high school but then became average D1 runners. Academics should be the priority. You run 4 years but work 40 years. I think kids enjoy almost any college which is why I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the running program. I would prioritize academics and cost.
3. Financial incentives vary wildly even with same times, though we don't have and probably should not share detailed financial information between those posting here.
It's #3 that's confusing. What experiences do people have on this point: if you are a saver and on paper have the resources to pay full fare is it that no college will offer merit or athletic incentive? I noted calculators take into account home equity and seemingly every asset of value you have.
D3 schools, Ivy League, and Patriot League schools have need-based financial aid. These schools use formula's to determine your estimated family contribution towards your child's tuition. It factors in everything, income, retirement funds, regular savings, home ownership, other siblings, etc.
Even if your income is modest, if you have money saved up specifically for college tuition, they will make you spend that money. For example if your income would normally fall in the range to qualify for a substantial amount of financial aid but you have 250k saved up for college, they will not give you that financial aid and they will say it's because you have money saved up.
So a family that is diligent, makes sacrifices for years, goes on no vacations to save for college gets penalized and forced to pay full tuition, vs. a family that spends carelessly with lavish vacations, cars, $ big screen televisions is rewarded because they will qualify for more financial aid.
These same schools also have endowments in the billions, extravagant football stadiums, a president that makes 1 million dollar salary per year, and a bloated administrative staff with bloated salaries. Then if your child wants to work a job on campus - guess what they are only paying minimum wage! There is so much waste in the way colleges spend money, it's sickening to see what your 80k per year goes to. The greed is infuriating while college students and their families are drowning in student loan payments.
If you have 300k saved up, try to spend as little of it as possible for college. You can find a great fit at 1/10th of the cost. Put that 300k into a 5% savings account, bank 15k per year for the 4 years she's in school, then buy her a 360k house (or pay for a large portion of the house).
This way the house will appreciate in value, while she doesn't have to pay 6-7% interest rates on a mortgage. She can start banking serious money into her 401k right away. She'll be able to retire much sooner, and for that matter even start a family sooner. It also allows her to pick a career and a job she is passionate about instead of having to pick a major solely based on the pay required to buy a house and start a family on her own.
Here's the worst part - these colleges like Williams are raising tuition approximately 5% every year - about 4000 dollars. That means this year they may be 80k per year. Your daughters senior year, those schools will be 84k per year. Her freshman year 88k per year. 92k as a sophomore, 96k as a junior and 100k as a senior in 2028-2029.
3. Financial incentives vary wildly even with same times, though we don't have and probably should not share detailed financial information between those posting here.
It's #3 that's confusing. What experiences do people have on this point: if you are a saver and on paper have the resources to pay full fare is it that no college will offer merit or athletic incentive? I noted calculators take into account home equity and seemingly every asset of value you have.
That means this year they may be 80k per year. Your daughters senior year, those schools will be 84k per year. Her freshman year 88k per year. 92k as a sophomore, 96k as a junior and 100k as a senior in 2028-2029.
I like that this is a financial and college conversation as much as a running conversation. I have to admit, for us and any Californian with access to in state tuition at some really fine academic institutions it is hard to relate to the expense of the alternatives. I do see some upsides, but success later may not even depend on those upsides. Success and with it happiness came from pedigree in some people I know, but it's not a direct correlation. At most 50% and maybe even 35%.
That's not true either. Most members of those teams are paying full tuition.
4.2 GPA with 1400-1450 will not get accepted to those schools if they have to pay her 60k+ per year to attend. The schools boast they meet the demonstrated need of their students but their dirty secret is they just won't admit those students.
At a school like Williams or Hopkins, you can be accepted with much lower grades than their averages if you are paying full tuition. If you are receiving 60k per year in financial aid, you damn well better have perfect GPA, perfect SAT scores, and something special that sets you apart like you sail the ocean on weekends and collect millions of tons of trash each year.
Those coaches have a small number of recruiting slots they can use, but they would not be using them on 2:23 runners who might run 2:17. They will use them on cross country specialists that are under 18 min for full 5k on a hard xc course.
I know this because my wife works in financial aid at one of those D3 private schools (not one of the ones brought up here). We both believe those schools are a scam - she sees so many smarter students get rejected in favor of rich students because the school isn't willing to pay that much in financial aid. But she stays there because she is getting paid very well and we will qualify for tuition exchange for our children.
I don't doubt that this is true to some extent and some of that type of schools, but we've had a bunch of kids from our school, including my kids, who have gotten in to these well endowed small liberal arts schools and the most any of them are paying is $20K/year. The other kids from our school vary from pretty much nothing to about $10K/year. For most of these kids it's ended up less than their costs at the local mid-level state school would have been.
I assume when you say $20K per year as the subsidized cost at elite well-endowed schools that's need-based aid? If not the varying experiences of those on this thread resembles US healthcare cost variance. Same procedure varies 300% depending how much can be extracted from you+insurer as opposed to leveling the cost.
Yes, all "need based" aid, but some of these families are doing quite well.
In our own case, we make $100-110K/year, own a house worth ~half a million (with $150K still on mortgage), and had $80K in a 529 for our kids when our oldest entered college. Need based aid put us at paying $20K/year at one of the D3 liberal arts colleges mentioned in this thread.
Nobody here seems actually interested in answering your questions, just bragging about the fake scholarship their kid didn't receive at their crummy mid-major school. I have worked at some of the schools mentioned on this thread and can tell you there's a lot of misinformation on here.
Right now your daughter is a great fit for D3. Sure, she could walk on at a D1 school and be a nobody and you can come on this board and brag to all your about the fact that your kid is a D1 SCHOLARSHIP ATHLETE. Or she could contribute to a team with national level aspirations, and work towards those levels of achievement herself. You have to run like 2:11-12 just to make d3 nationals, 2:06 probably to have a shot at winning it - she is nowhere near this level right now and would have a ton of room for growth in D3. Focus on finding a school that is the right fit for where she is academically and athletically and that you can afford. If that's a D1 mid-major or D2 then cool, but look at TFRRS and see where she stands in each division. The 500th best D1 female ran 2:12.86 last year. 500th! Honestly, I think someone saying a D1 program is offering 50% athletic scholarship to a 2:23 girl is flagrantly lying, but if they aren't then that is a HUGE red flag and reflects poorly on that program that they are that desperate to get girls to come there.
As far as what to look for in a program, look at how athletes are developing or improving, both over their 4 year careers and in comparison to their high school times. Look at retention, are the freshmen from 3 years ago still on the team (or how they are getting worse / quitting *cough* pomona pitzer *cough*). Get her the opportunity to interact with women on the team, particularly in settings where food is involved, and judge for herself if it seems like a healthy culture. Judge for herself if she sees herself fitting in there. If she likes the coaches/athletes. Coaches change but chances are whoever the first years and sophomores are on the team when she visits will be people who she ends up spending a lot of time with and learning a lot of habits from.
Ask coaches direct questions about eating disorders/fueling/weight/body image, and decide if you like their answers. Does every person on the team look severely underweight? These cultures are improving a lot of places right now but there are still super toxic teams out there at every level and I certainly wouldn't want my kid in that type of environment.
Ask coaches direct questions early in the process about support/financial aid/ admissions requirements, before you waste your money visiting. Honestly, I would not expect a 1400 SAT / 2:23 800 to be viable at schools like Williams/Amherst/Pomona (and no, it has nothing to do with how much money you family makes. It's because 2:23 is not that fast and 1400 on the SAT is not good enough). If that does become a 2:17 /1450+ this spring then it's a totally different conversation. Still gonna be tough academically, 1500 SAT though is really what you should be shooting for at the very top tier D3 small private schools. CMS (depending on which school)/Hopkins/WashU/Tufts/Middlebury etc are probably more viable options academically. None of those schools offer any academic scholarships.
I think I provided advice from the perspective of a parent who has gone through the process three times. The OP seems very realistic in his expectations. Your advice puts the emphasis on athletics while he wants his daughter to focus on academics when making her decision.
I have two daughters who ran/run at D1 schools. We never would have asked about eating disorders during our visits. We didn't want to to put the coach in the position of having to tell us that is medical information which is not shareable. By asking, it also seems like a parent is inferring that their daughter has had an eating disorder or has a personality that requires extra attention..
You have a great attitude and you are getting a lot of useful info in this thread.
There really aren't wrong choices, particularly if your daughter will end up at some point getting a grad degree.
It can be cheaper for the parent if child goes state school, or d1 with scholarship.
It can be great for the child if they use running to get into a top school and they make the most of it.
Similarly, for a 2:20/5:00/10:30 girl it can be fun to challenge yourself at d1 to see if you can improve with top competition and coaching. It's also fun to go d3 and immediately be fighting for a top 7 xc spot and scoring points at the conference track meet in relays.
The more research parent and child make up front, the better and more fully informed joint decision will be made.
! Honestly, I think someone saying a D1 program is offering 50% athletic scholarship to a 2:23 girl is flagrantly lying, but if they aren't then that is a HUGE red flag and reflects poorly on that program that they are that desperate to get girls to come there.
You are lying or you don't know how to read. My exact statement was "There are close to 100 mid major D1 schools that will give a 2:17 runner at least a 50% scholarship. If she runs 2:15 she could get a full at about 30 of those schools."
2:17.00 is equivalent to a 5:05 in the 1600. Keep in mind these are times as a junior, meaning her senior year she may run 2:14 and 4:55 or faster. If she is showing a nice trajectory of improvement there are absolutely schools that will offer her BIG scholarships.
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