Here's some more "big" improvements that you obviously weren't aware of. And yes you can look them up in the iaaf bio's yourself. I'll try not to mis-copy the hundredth's this time.
Noah Ngeny: 1996: 3:42.44, 1997: 3:32.91 (~9sec)
Mehdi Baala: 1998: 3:41.86, 1999: 3:34.83 (~7sec)
Paul Korir: 2002: 3:39.12, 2003: 3:30.72 (~9sec)
I was going off Bautista's ElG 1500m progression:http://www.kingofthemile.com/statistics.htmlTime Position Location Date of Race 4:01 ? ? ?-?-1991? 3:51 ? ? ?-?-1991 3:43.54 3 Paris 6-11-1994 3:33.61 3 Nice 7-18-1994 3:31.53 2 Oslo 7-21-1995 3:31.16 1 Cologne 8-18-1995 3:30.59 1 Rome 6-5-1996 3:30.22 1 Zurich 8-14-1996 3:29.05 1 Brussels 8-23-1996 3:28.91 1 Zurich 8-13-1997 3:26.00 1 Rome 7-14-1998 at Paris he ran 3:43 in June '94 then in one month went down ten seconds to 3:33. I'll grant that I stretched things about by saying 3:43 to 3:31 but it still stands he dropped a ton of time in one month. Regardless, I just listed a bunch of other guys who have dropped as much showing that Ramzi's drop is not unprecedented.
bathing suit area wrote:
huh? wrote:wow so what's the difference? i took his first 1500 to his last 1500, that's more than a year. so he improved TEN seconds in one season, the improvement looks even more drastic than Ramzi's. you just made an even better argument for me!
i have no bones to pick either way, but i'm unclear as to what you've posted. where have you listed his first 1500? i'm unaware of this 10sec difference you talk of. thanks.
huh? wrote:
Here's some more "big" improvements that you obviously weren't aware of. And yes you can look them up in the iaaf bio's yourself. I'll try not to mis-copy the hundredth's this time.
Noah Ngeny: 1996: 3:42.44, 1997: 3:32.91 (~9sec)
Mehdi Baala: 1998: 3:41.86, 1999: 3:34.83 (~7sec)
Paul Korir: 2002: 3:39.12, 2003: 3:30.72 (~9sec)
these are not good examples.
Noah Ngeny and Paul Korir (especially Ngeny) are very naturally talented and move very efficiently and easily. They had a very large aerobic base from which to build on from a young age. It is not unusual for Kenyan to improve like this in 1500m after 1 season of specific training. Paul Korir was fast 800m runner having run 1.44 in 2000 I think already.
Mehdi Baala is not a good example, he is in the same boat with Rasid Ramzi.
to "huh?": 3:43.54 3 Paris 6-11-1994
That race was a tactical race I think, the Francophone games
Kimbia wrote:
huh? wrote:Here's some more "big" improvements that you obviously weren't aware of. And yes you can look them up in the iaaf bio's yourself. I'll try not to mis-copy the hundredth's this time.
Noah Ngeny: 1996: 3:42.44, 1997: 3:32.91 (~9sec)
Mehdi Baala: 1998: 3:41.86, 1999: 3:34.83 (~7sec)
Paul Korir: 2002: 3:39.12, 2003: 3:30.72 (~9sec)
these are not good examples.
Noah Ngeny and Paul Korir (especially Ngeny) are very naturally talented and move very efficiently and easily. They had a very large aerobic base from which to build on from a young age. It is not unusual for Kenyan to improve like this in 1500m after 1 season of specific training. Paul Korir was fast 800m runner having run 1.44 in 2000 I think already.
Mehdi Baala is not a good example, he is in the same boat with Rasid Ramzi.
How do you know Rashid Ramzi isn't naturally talented? How do you know he doesn't move very efficiently? Can I notice this too if I were to watch a taping of him? Did Rashid Ramzi not have a large aerobic base to build on from when he was kid? Do you know what any of his training was like ever? Does anyone for that matter?
has anyone ever in the history of Athletics ever toyed with a field through every round of both 1500 and 800 metres and won them both as easily as Ramzi did?
And ask yourself honestly, is he that much of a good athlete?
Remember it tookl El G his whole career before he scraped together an Olympic win in the 1500, Ramzi's has waltzed in against alot of the same guys, also at the olympics where drug testing is at it's height and things go beyond the spineless iaaf, where was Ramzi?????
because Noah Ngeny run this time of 3.42 as 18 year old at World Juniors with no international competition before this.
If Ramzi were to have a strong talent I would imagine he can run faster than 3.43.2 at 21 and 3.44 at 22. My opinion as someone who has seen many talented runners at a young age.
There is a large difference in physical matureness between 18 years and 22 (I read Ramzi ran 3.43 at age of 21) in fact huge difference.
I think you can definetly notice a difference in effort of running from Ngeny to Ramzi. Do you ever have watched Ramzi run??? Better question - do you have watched Noah???
because Noah Ngeny run this time of 3.42 as 18 year old at World Juniors with no international competition before this.
If Ramzi were to have a strong talent I would imagine he can run faster than 3.43.2 at 21 and 3.44 at 22. My opinion as someone who has seen many talented runners at a young age.
There is a large difference in physical matureness between 18 years and 22 (I read Ramzi ran 3.43 at age of 21) in fact huge difference.
I think you can definetly notice a difference in effort of running from Ngeny to Ramzi. Do you ever have watched Ramzi run??? Better question - do you have watched Noah???
Here's a brief timeline of Rashid Ramzi's racing results for 2004, neglecting however the Olympic coverage. I don't really have the time to look up the results for that, but maybe someone else could. So, in 2004, Rashid Ramzi did the following according to the GP meets that listed their results on the IAAF website:
10th IAAF World Indoor Championships
Ramzi goes 1st in Heat 1, 2nd in Semi-Finals, 2nd in Final in 1:46.15(Area Record) behind Mbulaeni(1:45.71).
pretty strong performance
July 2, 2004
Ramzi wins his first(?) 1500m race of the year in 3:30.25 against Bernard Lagat, Medhi Baala, Isaac Songok, Rui Silva, and Alex Kipchirchir.
very strong performance, especially for his first 1500m race of the season
July 27, 2004
Ramzi gets 3rd in 3:35 behind Heshko(1st) and Kipchirchir(2nd) all in 3:35.xx
still a strong race, because if ramzi waited to kick, heshko is a pretty hard runner to kick with, very good kick, but he still finished just tenths of a second behind him and kipchirchir
I don't think he really did anything at the Olympics. I think he may have made it to the final, but as far as medaling or not, I'm not sure. Otherwise, it looks like Ramsi didn't compete very much at all(3 races(5 including heats) in preparation for the Olympics. One angle I could see, if he were on roids, is maybe he was trying to stay under the radar. A 3:30.25 opening 1500 for the season is very impressive, although it was in the middle of the summer. So I suppose I could lean eitherway as far as him doping or not. He may be wise in competing less and getting in more qualitative training. What was his racing schedule like for 2005? Sparce or frequent?
Honestly the biggest cheats are to come now that I thought about it alittle longer. The 2008 Beijing Olympics will double the upcoming Championships 2006 World Junior and 2007 Outdoor World Championships with athletes having performance enhancing drugs courses though their bodies. Yes the Gulf countries, Russia, and China will start some amazing things starting this year. I mentioned Russia and China almost a year ago; however, we haven't really seen anything yet (despite the 1500m and 3000m indoor WR).
To be a medal at the 2008 Olympics the clean athletes better be FIT ENOUGH to break into the all-time 10 list in their prespective events.
osu fan wrote:
can we please turn this into a Michael Bautista bashing post? Please? I've had that kid blocked on AIM since like 1999, back when he was trying to bust a nut to pictures of his old teammate from McLean, VA, James Small.
Dragonblades or something like that...
this has caused me much uncontrolled laughter
PS. He was Powerman5000 too. Just a little kid who never grew up.
Vipam wrote:
To be a medal at the 2008 Olympics the clean athletes better be FIT ENOUGH to break into the all-time 10 list in their prespective events.
I couldnt agree more with your post Vipam. And this last statement is pretty scary considering how accurate it is.
143man
kewl name considering that what most of my college teammates thought I should run for the 800m! The finals may not play out to all-time top 10 performances but it will require the fitness to compete with the numerous drug cheats who will slide by the testing committee. I expect some fast races but alot of races will be were the finishes (most aided by performance enhancing drugs) are going to be considerably faster than most races/previous championships before 2008.
no, I agree 100% with you. Having run both the 800m in Athens and Helsinki, I think I have a reasonable idea of whats up.
congratulations on your making those major Championships, but I hope I'm wrong about the upcoming Olympics. It a shame how the elite clean athletes will have a hard time dealing with mediocore dirty athletes aided by performance enhancing drugs and beating the decent athletes aided by the drugs.
trust me, its something you learn to just live with, and something you learn REAL early in your career. The one thing about the mens 800m, is that I personally believe it is still possible to win the gold medal at a major championships CLEAN. It is an event (like all) that physiologically that can benefit from performance enhancing drugs, BUT not to the same level as events 100-400m or 1500-Marathon. It falls in that "grey zone" .IMHO. I guess its the one thing that keeps the rest of us going???
'And dont make me laugh with Kelly Holmes comparisons - if any of you think the level in depth and difficulty between womans MD and mens MD is in any way comparable, then you guys really are stupid.'
Hey, I was just pointing out that you were wrong about no one having won both 800m and 1500m in Olympics/Worlds since Snell.
could alan webb, with that pre-mature balding, be on steriods?
he looks really old for his age. considering the ease of obtaining these stuff here in the US -- any HS football player can get a hold of it.
i want to see how 143man looks like. You may be on steriods too. LOL
Who did Ramzi "dismantle"? A bunch of 2nd-tier runners? The 800 and 1500 were the weakest in years... Kaouch is a nobody.. Silva past his prime.. Heshko solid defeat.. Casado/Webb a youngster... Kipchichir's first major championship, etc., etc., BUT NO HICHAM EL GUERROUJ OR BERNARD LAGAT especially for a guy with the best speed in the field.
Pos Bib Athlete Country Mark
1 113 Ramzi Rashid BRN 3:37.88
2 631 Kaouch Adil MAR 3:38.00 (SB)
3 753 Silva Rui POR 3:38.02
4 939 Heshko Ivan UKR 3:38.71
5 222 Casado Arturo ESP 3:39.45
6 233 Higuero Juan Carlos ESP 3:40.34
7 559 Kipchirchir Alex KEN 3:40.43
8 10 Boukensa Tarek ALG 3:41.01
9 1046 Webb Alan USA 3:41.04
10 764 Bashir Daham Najim QAT 3:43.48
11 226 Estévez Reyes ESP 3:46.65
12 619 Bensghir Yassine MAR 3:50.19
The 800 field was a bit more impressive. Ramzi just ran a tactically brilliant race and everyone else was just taken by surprise with a year where no one could really break 1:44... a very complacent group of 800 runners was defeated by running a race within striking range of Ramzi, who was trying to run something special and did.
Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 19:30
Pos Lane Bib Athlete Country Mark
1 3 113 Ramzi Rashid BRN 1:44.24 (PB)
2 6 803 Borzakovskiy Yuriy RUS 1:44.51
3 1 573 Yiampoy William KEN 1:44.55
4 5 553 Bungei Wilfred KEN 1:44.98
5 8 14 Saïd-Guerni Djabir ALG 1:45.31
6 2 308 Baala Mehdi FRA 1:45.32
7 7 111 Ali Belal Mansoor BRN 1:45.55
8 4 137 Reed Gary CAN 1:46.20
Please, let's not make drug accusations of runners that drop phenomenal amounts of time, because than I'll be first the sacrifice Paula Radcliffe.
143man, what gives you the confidence in the 800 that it can still be won clean (implying that others can't)? This isn't meant as an attack; I'm honestly curious. I would guess it has something to do with the race falling in the middle ground aerobically, anaerobically, tactically, and strategically vis-a-vis other championship races.