A lot of them were sub-30 10k guys in college, but switched to trail running when they graduated, because they quickly realised no one was handing out pro contracts to 29 minute 10kers.
It's not surprising that a guy with 29 minute 10k potential can run a 15 minute 5k off sub-optimal training.
I really encourage anyone to check out Zach Miller's training log. He will put in 30+ hour weeks at legitimate paces.
If you think those 12-15 min miles are easy, just check out the terrain he's on. It's not 5k specific work, but I do think it's the "hardest" I've seen a runner train.
The caveat here is that you simply can't do the same work on the road or track. Mountain running is more akin to swimming or cycling where you can put in huge amounts of intense work, since you're beating the body up less due to the slower paces
I've always wondered if this type of training could be good for early season work before things get too specific.
The human body wasn't meant to wear super-shoes, run around a 400m oval twice a week at cheetah like speeds, and accumulate 90 other miles the rest of that week on asphalt...
Ultra-running is more human, huntering and gathering and rotting out their teeth with coca cola and gummi bears.
I can’t wait for the day Kipchoge runs an ultra. Any distance any surface (as Sage says) he will destroy all these walkers swiftly. Hardrock or UTMB he will nap and take tea and still win. Javelina he would not be able to nap but he’d run probably 1115.
I can’t wait for the day Kipchoge runs an ultra. Any distance any surface (as Sage says) he will destroy all these walkers swiftly. Hardrock or UTMB he will nap and take tea and still win. Javelina he would not be able to nap but he’d run probably 1115.
I think a lot of sub 2:10 and sub 2:05 pro marathoners could do really well at ultras (even 100-mile "mountain courses") like Hardrock or UTMB. Javelina would obviously be a faster and easier transition initially because it is pretty flat and not a "big mountain" ultra.
The issue is, if you're a 2:05 guy on the roads you're probably making more money for sure (compared to switching to ultras).
And a lot of the E. Africans probably don't even know about "ultra trail running." It's really such a small niche part of distance running.
Finally, even if Kipchoge wanted to do a race like Hardrock...he wouldn't be able to get in for years likely! Hardrock is one of the most exclusive and niche ultra-trail mountain races and they have a biased "lottery" that favors old timers who have already done the race disproportionately.
Even if someone like him wanted to do UTMB they'd have to qualify at a UTMB event first and get "stones" and establish a "UTMB index"....there are so many more barriers to entry...
I can’t wait for the day Kipchoge runs an ultra. Any distance any surface (as Sage says) he will destroy all these walkers swiftly. Hardrock or UTMB he will nap and take tea and still win. Javelina he would not be able to nap but he’d run probably 1115.
I think a lot of sub 2:10 and sub 2:05 pro marathoners could do really well at ultras (even 100-mile "mountain courses") like Hardrock or UTMB. Javelina would obviously be a faster and easier transition initially because it is pretty flat and not a "big mountain" ultra.
The issue is, if you're a 2:05 guy on the roads you're probably making more money for sure (compared to switching to ultras).
And a lot of the E. Africans probably don't even know about "ultra trail running." It's really such a small niche part of distance running.
Finally, even if Kipchoge wanted to do a race like Hardrock...he wouldn't be able to get in for years likely! Hardrock is one of the most exclusive and niche ultra-trail mountain races and they have a biased "lottery" that favors old timers who have already done the race disproportionately.
Even if someone like him wanted to do UTMB they'd have to qualify at a UTMB event first and get "stones" and establish a "UTMB index"....there are so many more barriers to entry...
If Kipchoge or any other elite-level marathoner (elite, not 2:12) wanted to enter UTMB, Hardrock or WS, and the organizers could make money of it, they'd let them in. They're not going to force the greatest runners in the world to get stones or sit through a lottery.
Kipchoge would be accepted into ANY ultra within 5 minutes of saying he wants to do so. Some ultra nobodies would cry about it on their instagram posts or whatever, but it would happen.
the dude who won Speedgoat this year literally trains w/ connor mants and jared ward...
some of best/most talented/hardest training American marathoners...
he's an absolute monster 100mpw/DTT training dude
I’m not one to dis trail runners. I have a ton of respect for what they do. But doesn’t this post sort of support some of the criticism of the sport? Christian Allen (the guy who won Speedgoat) was an all-American in college. He was never a national champion but was very good. He then hops over to ultra running and in just a few months is destroying pros who have been doing this for years.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
I can’t wait for the day Kipchoge runs an ultra. Any distance any surface (as Sage says) he will destroy all these walkers swiftly. Hardrock or UTMB he will nap and take tea and still win. Javelina he would not be able to nap but he’d run probably 1115.
I think a lot of sub 2:10 and sub 2:05 pro marathoners could do really well at ultras (even 100-mile "mountain courses") like Hardrock or UTMB. Javelina would obviously be a faster and easier transition initially because it is pretty flat and not a "big mountain" ultra.
The issue is, if you're a 2:05 guy on the roads you're probably making more money for sure (compared to switching to ultras).
And a lot of the E. Africans probably don't even know about "ultra trail running." It's really such a small niche part of distance running.
Finally, even if Kipchoge wanted to do a race like Hardrock...he wouldn't be able to get in for years likely! Hardrock is one of the most exclusive and niche ultra-trail mountain races and they have a biased "lottery" that favors old timers who have already done the race disproportionately.
Even if someone like him wanted to do UTMB they'd have to qualify at a UTMB event first and get "stones" and establish a "UTMB index"....there are so many more barriers to entry...
I agree with most of Sage comments about ultrarunning but he is dead wrong when it comes to longer ultras and elite marathoners trying them.
Kenyan's could have done Comrades Marathon for the last 20 years and yet they have not produced any significant results there.
Alberta Salazar tried Comrades once after the end of his Marathon career and he won that one. I can see that some top Marathon runners could repeat that. But they still have to show up and it's very likely they won't even try it. Why? The risk is higher than the reward. They know already that running 5+ hours is a lot longer than running just 2 hours.
Some of these runners could do well in 100k road races as well but again they have to show up.
With 100 mile trail races and especially Hardrock or UMTB, absolutely zero change.
Kipchoge would be sitting weeping at an aid station at mile 30 at UMTB at night with some rain and DNF right there. All of these top Marathoners are highly specialized athletes. There is almost zero chance that they will finish a 100 miler no matter the time.
The 2:15-20 Marathon who might do well in ultraraces, is actually happening for a long time. Top ultrarunners did sub 2:30 already 40 years ago. Yiannis Kouros did 2:24 I think when he was young. Others did sub 2:20 to sub 2:30. But that doesn't mean that all sub 2:30 Marathoners could have done it.
This is always a great way to diminish the results of the people who actually show up on race day and race.
But they still have to show up and it's very likely they won't even try it. Why? The risk is higher than the reward.
This is true, and it undercuts the rest of your point. Could top marathoners show up and win ultras? Maybe, maybe not, but the answer to that hypothetical question doesn't depend on whether they actually do show up.
It's the same with the various novelty challenges that people like Dean K come up with. They can set "records" because they're the first person to ever try running a marathon in every state with an odd number of letters in its name on consecutive Tuesdays. Is Eliud Kipchoge going to show up to beat that record? Of course not, but it has nothing to do with whether he *could* set that record.
Now, the growing professionalization of ultra and trail running means that many of the top records and race victories really are world-class. An "average" 2:15 marathoner who shows up at, say, UTMB or Comrades or whatever will likely get destroyed, and personally I wouldn't bet on any road specialist--even Kipchoge or Kiptum--getting on the podium. But the fact that the Kipchoges of the world haven't shown up to ultra races says nothing about whether they *could* do well.
Kipchoge would be sitting weeping at an aid station at mile 30 at UMTB at night with some rain and DNF right there.
You are delusional. You are talking about a guy who has lived like a monk for the past 20 years. About a guy who gets so into his zone that he doesn't feel the heaps of snot on his face for 2 hours. Pathetic trail hobbyjoggers run-walk a 50 miler once in their lifetime and think that they have achieved some sort of enlightenment and understand pain like no one else. It's laughable.
I think a lot of sub 2:10 and sub 2:05 pro marathoners could do really well at ultras (even 100-mile "mountain courses") like Hardrock or UTMB. Javelina would obviously be a faster and easier transition initially because it is pretty flat and not a "big mountain" ultra.
The issue is, if you're a 2:05 guy on the roads you're probably making more money for sure (compared to switching to ultras).
And a lot of the E. Africans probably don't even know about "ultra trail running." It's really such a small niche part of distance running.
Finally, even if Kipchoge wanted to do a race like Hardrock...he wouldn't be able to get in for years likely! Hardrock is one of the most exclusive and niche ultra-trail mountain races and they have a biased "lottery" that favors old timers who have already done the race disproportionately.
Even if someone like him wanted to do UTMB they'd have to qualify at a UTMB event first and get "stones" and establish a "UTMB index"....there are so many more barriers to entry...
I agree with most of Sage comments about ultrarunning but he is dead wrong when it comes to longer ultras and elite marathoners trying them.
Kenyan's could have done Comrades Marathon for the last 20 years and yet they have not produced any significant results there.
Alberta Salazar tried Comrades once after the end of his Marathon career and he won that one. I can see that some top Marathon runners could repeat that. But they still have to show up and it's very likely they won't even try it. Why? The risk is higher than the reward. They know already that running 5+ hours is a lot longer than running just 2 hours.
Some of these runners could do well in 100k road races as well but again they have to show up.
With 100 mile trail races and especially Hardrock or UMTB, absolutely zero change.
Kipchoge would be sitting weeping at an aid station at mile 30 at UMTB at night with some rain and DNF right there. All of these top Marathoners are highly specialized athletes. There is almost zero chance that they will finish a 100 miler no matter the time.
The 2:15-20 Marathon who might do well in ultraraces, is actually happening for a long time. Top ultrarunners did sub 2:30 already 40 years ago. Yiannis Kouros did 2:24 I think when he was young. Others did sub 2:20 to sub 2:30. But that doesn't mean that all sub 2:30 Marathoners could have done it.
This is always a great way to diminish the results of the people who actually show up on race day and race.
No talented African is going to overhaul their training for a race with a $25,000 first-place prize that doesn't translate to anything else.
Your argument seems to be that Jim Walmsley is the greatest runner in history because he ran an OTQ and won UTMB, but in your little view, no elite road-racer could translate to mountains.
They don't do it not because they can't, but because it's not lucrative. 2:15-30 guys run ultras because their marathon times are pedesatrian, but in ultras, they can claim to be "elite." If the appearance fee and prize money for the UTMB series looked like the world marathon majors, so would the podium.
2:20 Africans don't run ultras because they're too poor to self-fund, they're not marketable enough for brands, and the payoff isn't worth it for agents. Nobody will pay them to train and travel, and all the races are in Europe, Asia and the US.
It's not about talent or ability. It's about the inverstrment being worth it, and for ultras, it isn't.
I can’t wait for the day Kipchoge runs an ultra. Any distance any surface (as Sage says) he will destroy all these walkers swiftly. Hardrock or UTMB he will nap and take tea and still win. Javelina he would not be able to nap but he’d run probably 1115.
I think a lot of sub 2:10 and sub 2:05 pro marathoners could do really well at ultras (even 100-mile "mountain courses") like Hardrock or UTMB. Javelina would obviously be a faster and easier transition initially because it is pretty flat and not a "big mountain" ultra.
The issue is, if you're a 2:05 guy on the roads you're probably making more money for sure (compared to switching to ultras).
And a lot of the E. Africans probably don't even know about "ultra trail running." It's really such a small niche part of distance running.
Finally, even if Kipchoge wanted to do a race like Hardrock...he wouldn't be able to get in for years likely! Hardrock is one of the most exclusive and niche ultra-trail mountain races and they have a biased "lottery" that favors old timers who have already done the race disproportionately.
Even if someone like him wanted to do UTMB they'd have to qualify at a UTMB event first and get "stones" and establish a "UTMB index"....there are so many more barriers to entry...
the dude who won Speedgoat this year literally trains w/ connor mants and jared ward...
some of best/most talented/hardest training American marathoners...
he's an absolute monster 100mpw/DTT training dude
I’m not one to dis trail runners. I have a ton of respect for what they do. But doesn’t this post sort of support some of the criticism of the sport? Christian Allen (the guy who won Speedgoat) was an all-American in college. He was never a national champion but was very good. He then hops over to ultra running and in just a few months is destroying pros who have been doing this for years.
And then, two months later, he promptly got dismantled at Pikes Peak. Which goes to show: it's not automatic.
I’m not one to dis trail runners. I have a ton of respect for what they do. But doesn’t this post sort of support some of the criticism of the sport? Christian Allen (the guy who won Speedgoat) was an all-American in college. He was never a national champion but was very good. He then hops over to ultra running and in just a few months is destroying pros who have been doing this for years.
And then, two months later, he promptly got dismantled at Pikes Peak. Which goes to show: it's not automatic.
No race over a half-marathon distance is ever automatic, for anyone not named Eliud Kipchoge. That’s irrelevant though to the argument that Ultra running is still an immature, niche sport (dominated by white, middle class athletes) whose fastest participants would likely get destroyed if the top marathoners ever decided to have a go at them. Seeing guys like Allen show up and win a big race right off the bat against seasoned pros only highlights this aspect.
There is no denying that if the top marathoners enters the ultra scene, most likely some of them will dominate. But they will not all be successful.
Ultra running, especially those takes longer than 10 hours to finish, requires some extra talent than pure running. The body need to have sustained output for a long time. Only a subset of the elite marathoners are going to have this talent, and more specifically, Kipchoge, as great a marathoner as he is, could be a hit or a miss.
Kipchoge would be accepted into ANY ultra within 5 minutes of saying he wants to do so. Some ultra nobodies would cry about it on their instagram posts or whatever, but it would happen.
seriously, lol. there might would be 1 or 2 exceptions of some stubborn old time race, but if almost nobody is going to turn away kipchoge regardless of their entry system. cmon.
I agree with most of Sage comments about ultrarunning but he is dead wrong when it comes to longer ultras and elite marathoners trying them.
Kenyan's could have done Comrades Marathon for the last 20 years and yet they have not produced any significant results there.
Alberta Salazar tried Comrades once after the end of his Marathon career and he won that one. I can see that some top Marathon runners could repeat that. But they still have to show up and it's very likely they won't even try it. Why? The risk is higher than the reward. They know already that running 5+ hours is a lot longer than running just 2 hours.
Some of these runners could do well in 100k road races as well but again they have to show up.
With 100 mile trail races and especially Hardrock or UMTB, absolutely zero change.
Kipchoge would be sitting weeping at an aid station at mile 30 at UMTB at night with some rain and DNF right there. All of these top Marathoners are highly specialized athletes. There is almost zero chance that they will finish a 100 miler no matter the time.
The 2:15-20 Marathon who might do well in ultraraces, is actually happening for a long time. Top ultrarunners did sub 2:30 already 40 years ago. Yiannis Kouros did 2:24 I think when he was young. Others did sub 2:20 to sub 2:30. But that doesn't mean that all sub 2:30 Marathoners could have done it.
This is always a great way to diminish the results of the people who actually show up on race day and race.
No talented African is going to overhaul their training for a race with a $25,000 first-place prize that doesn't translate to anything else.
Your argument seems to be that Jim Walmsley is the greatest runner in history because he ran an OTQ and won UTMB, but in your little view, no elite road-racer could translate to mountains.
They don't do it not because they can't, but because it's not lucrative. 2:15-30 guys run ultras because their marathon times are pedesatrian, but in ultras, they can claim to be "elite." If the appearance fee and prize money for the UTMB series looked like the world marathon majors, so would the podium.
2:20 Africans don't run ultras because they're too poor to self-fund, they're not marketable enough for brands, and the payoff isn't worth it for agents. Nobody will pay them to train and travel, and all the races are in Europe, Asia and the US.
It's not about talent or ability. It's about the inverstrment being worth it, and for ultras, it isn't.
the problem with your logic is it doesn't make any sense. not every east african is raking in big bucks traveling the WMM circuit. There are a bunch of fringe athletes barely scraping by, hoping to break thru or hold onto the end of their careers. Why wouldn't *any* of those guys switch to trails if it's as easy (and they would be as dominant) as you claim?
Here is an example: the Valencia Marathon in 2018 paid $30k for first down to $3k for 6th.
You are saying that these 2:05 to 2:07 marathoners, barely making any money on the roads, wouldn't want to immediately become the top ultra runner of all time? Personally, I think being a dominant, all-time ultra runner would be more lucrative than a fringe marathoner lucky to make $10k in prize money in a year.
For example, 147 people ran under 2:08 in 2022 and 157 have already this year. None of them would have any interest in so easily becoming the greatest ultra runner of time? Let alone all the 2:08 thru 2:12 people that also should so easily convert to dominance? That doesn't make much sense to me.
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