Study by Bakken noted that Ingebrigtsen does 2,000-3,000 reps at half marathon pace and 400m reps between 5k and 10k pace. It's under section 6, "Putting this training model into practice" and found here:
The aim of the present study was to describe a novel training model based on lactate-guided threshold interval training (LGTIT) within a high-volume, low-intensity approach, which characterizes the training pattern in some wo...
Study by Bakken noted that Ingebrigtsen does 2,000-3,000 reps at half marathon pace and 400m reps between 5k and 10k pace. It's under section 6, "Putting this training model into practice" and found here:
I’m afraid my coach may post here, but I’m feeling pretty burnt out from double thresholds, has anybody else experienced this? Last week we were instructed this:
AM: 4x1600 at MP W/ 90s rest
PM: 3x4x400 at 10k pace with 45s/ 60s/ and 70s rest.
I’m afraid my coach may not know what he’s doing. Posting anonymously because I have a feeling he posts on here, anybody else deal with issues with coaches not knowing what they’re doing in terms of double thresholds? It’s getting old at this point.
Study by Bakken noted that Ingebrigtsen does 2,000-3,000 reps at half marathon pace and 400m reps between 5k and 10k pace. It's under section 6, "Putting this training model into practice" and found here:
You need a significant build up to run 2-3K reps at HMP for DT days.
It has also taken them years (a decade or more for jakob) to get to this point. They also run high mileage (180k/week) with easy running in between sessions. As stated earlier - the intensity is based on the values of the lactate. That the actual paces correspond to specific race intensity is more in hindsight than foresight (that may be the result, but not the intention). The process that has led them to these paces is the real journey here. That is why the lactate meter is important - otherwise an estimate from Daniels's charts would be just as good at determining "pace" for these efforts. But that isn't what it is about. This is NOT a magic formula, as some (even many) seem to believe, as the devil is in the details. I highly doubt that this can be enacted for large groups of HS kids for many logistical reasons - taking blood from kids might be an issue for many schools (as coaches are normally not medical practitioners), the protocols are rigorous, and the kids (and parents) are likely not to understand what it is about. One poster is already concerned about the cost of the strips!!
In the right environment, with patience I think the rewards can be useful with double T. But so many are jumping on the bandwagon that are not fully engaging the process, it is no wonder the OP is questioning the results of programs trying to include this regimen. There are other means to accomplish similar things without trying to copy or adapt the Bakken/Ingebrigtsen model in a bare bones version.
I refused to introduce this double T method (when asked by my top HS runner) as it isn't practical for the mornings at this point (he just does higher volume LT work in the afternoon), and he is fine with that as he "gets it". Secondly, we have no idea whether his College program (next year) will be doing it, so there seems little point beginning it now if they don't - as I see it as a long-term process, not a short-term "magical" training day. I told him not to even consider whether a program has adopted this regimen as part of his selection process (there are better reasons to choose a College than whether they do double T's).
I’m afraid my coach may post here, but I’m feeling pretty burnt out from double thresholds, has anybody else experienced this? Last week we were instructed this:
AM: 4x1600 at MP W/ 90s rest
PM: 3x4x400 at 10k pace with 45s/ 60s/ and 70s rest.
I’m afraid my coach may not know what he’s doing. Posting anonymously because I have a feeling he posts on here, anybody else deal with issues with coaches not knowing what they’re doing in terms of double thresholds? It’s getting old at this point.
It would be nice if we all had the time to be able to do all these double thresholds. The above one sounds fun, but not hard on the body. MP is a pace you can literally hold for a thon. 4*1600 at this pace should be a very easy workout, if you are truly in the shape to do these reps without any break in between and then go onto running another 22 and a bit without any rest.
You will then be warmed up for the 10k pace workout. It is harder, but still not hard. You get plenty of rest, so imagine that you should be able to run this pace without any rest, and you are totaling 4,800m, or 12 laps of a track. If you are not going faster than 10k pace then you should also be able to carry on for another 13 laps at the workout pace without a break.
The only issue I would find is going a bit too fast which would be tempting and easy to do. Then it can be a hard day's work.
Threshold takes time, you cant expect to run it for 1 summer and some how run like Jakob. It provides a phenomenal base and fitness level but takes time.
That's because they do Triple T's. Double T's are a waste of time. The OP's coach is the same lot of brainwashed people who just three years ago were telling their athletes to just do singles
I’m afraid my coach may post here, but I’m feeling pretty burnt out from double thresholds, has anybody else experienced this? Last week we were instructed this:
AM: 4x1600 at MP W/ 90s rest
PM: 3x4x400 at 10k pace with 45s/ 60s/ and 70s rest.
I’m afraid my coach may not know what he’s doing. Posting anonymously because I have a feeling he posts on here, anybody else deal with issues with coaches not knowing what they’re doing in terms of double thresholds? It’s getting old at this point.
skip the a.m. and sleep in.
I'm tempted to agree BUT many high school swimmers successful in both school and swimming manage double training on school days. They may have some logistical disadvantages, too, as they usually have to get to a pool rather than swim at home, whereas runners might be able to use a home treadmill or simply do a morning session from home.
I'm tempted to agree BUT many high school swimmers successful in both school and swimming manage double training on school days. They may have some logistical disadvantages, too, as they usually have to get to a pool rather than swim at home, whereas runners might be able to use a home treadmill or simply do a morning session from home.
This is a horrible take. Swimming and running are quite a bit different. Swimming is, obviously, not a weight-bearing activity. You can't apply the exact same training principles to running as you do with swimming.
I am a coach who utilized Double Threshold work with my athletes this season. Wanted to give my 2 cents. We used a lactate monitor most workout days but it definitely gets cumbersome.
I found that Marathon pace for the first sessions were WAYYYY too fast. Lactate levels went up into the 4's or 5's mmol where my goal was get them closer to the 1.7-2.2 range. Tinman moderate pace ended up closer to their actual levels so that is what we went with since I couldn't test all my athletes after every repeat.
Afternoon sessions the goal was to get closer to 2.3-3.0 and occasionally getting as close to 3.5-4.0 then gave us a little more flexibility with workouts. For 400's, my athletes hovered between 5k-10k pace. It is crazy how quickly lactate is either accumulated or buffered by doing the 400's. A second or two too fast would bump the lactate up quickly.
Once racing started we would only touch up on double thresh work every other week.
Also. Your easy days need to be EASY! Easier than you think.
I do not coach Jakob.
Interested in this, you found marathon pace was too fast?
My initial reaction was that marathon pace sounded pretty slow for 4x1600 with 90sec rest. For a 16:00 5k runner that would be ~5:50's according to the Daniels calculator. You're using current 5k fitness to determine the paces right? Not say, their goal 5k times or 1500 pr's or something like that? I feel like 4-5 mile reps at MP with short rest should not be spiking lactate levels that high...
My two best runners were running 9:30's in the 3200 in track and were 16:00-20 guys this season in cross. I was surprised too! 5:50's would probably put them in the 2.5-4.0 on a given day and we were looking to run in the 1.7-2.3 range. We found that on any given day, they should run 6:10's to 6:20 on their morning mile repeats. We had times where one would only be at 1.2 for the first two reps at 6:20 pace and then would skyrocket the 3's with a 6:10 rep. The mile route we normally used has a decent hill in the beginning and some turns which I think could mess with the lactate levels.... not really sure on this but it's crazy how precise you have to be to get right in the zone.
We haven't really experimented with treadmill work but I can see why the Norwegians are advocates of this. No surging or hills, just steady pacing.
We will probably utilize treadmill training more once the winter hits.
Interested in this, you found marathon pace was too fast?
My initial reaction was that marathon pace sounded pretty slow for 4x1600 with 90sec rest. For a 16:00 5k runner that would be ~5:50's according to the Daniels calculator. You're using current 5k fitness to determine the paces right? Not say, their goal 5k times or 1500 pr's or something like that? I feel like 4-5 mile reps at MP with short rest should not be spiking lactate levels that high...
My two best runners were running 9:30's in the 3200 in track and were 16:00-20 guys this season in cross. I was surprised too! 5:50's would probably put them in the 2.5-4.0 on a given day and we were looking to run in the 1.7-2.3 range. We found that on any given day, they should run 6:10's to 6:20 on their morning mile repeats. We had times where one would only be at 1.2 for the first two reps at 6:20 pace and then would skyrocket the 3's with a 6:10 rep. The mile route we normally used has a decent hill in the beginning and some turns which I think could mess with the lactate levels.... not really sure on this but it's crazy how precise you have to be to get right in the zone.
We haven't really experimented with treadmill work but I can see why the Norwegians are advocates of this. No surging or hills, just steady pacing.
We will probably utilize treadmill training more once the winter hits.
The hill definitely spikes lactate. If it’s at the beginning of the rep, lactate should come back down by the end, unless the hill is quite steep and/or they’re really pushing it. I’d expect those athletes to be closer to 6:00 on a track.
I'm tempted to agree BUT many high school swimmers successful in both school and swimming manage double training on school days. They may have some logistical disadvantages, too, as they usually have to get to a pool rather than swim at home, whereas runners might be able to use a home treadmill or simply do a morning session from home.
This is a horrible take. Swimming and running are quite a bit different. Swimming is, obviously, not a weight-bearing activity. You can't apply the exact same training principles to running as you do with swimming.
Think of the sorrow that might have been spared if only you had warned the Ingebrigtsens.
I realize how running and swimming differ. I believe managing enough sleep is more likely to be a problem than, say, stress reactions or stress fractures.
at my HS the XC coach wasn't the TF coach, a football assistant was, who had more of a clue. so as you freak out about XC practices -- perhaps rightly -- after it's done, is your XC coach even your TF coach?
