All time greatest 800m Runner

Yes but not at the world championships (that was my specific reference).

He is though one of only 2 men to have both the WC and OG chip in the trophy cabinet (the other being Rudisha).

Really he should have a strong case to be only after Coe. His resume is technically better than Bungei, Borza but as we have discussed before - something just doesn’t seem right.

You do realize that Snell ran in the modern era? And doping was already a big thing at the 1912 Olympics. If you are sceptic of athletic achievements because of doping, you have to go back way more than nearly 5 decades. It has only been getting better but for more than a century.

You left out one important criterion: beauty.

Wilson Kipketer's exquisite form even at WR pace makes him the hands-down winner in my book. His indoor WR in Paris was so stunningly beautiful it left me in tears.

When i seen this thread i knew Letsrun's two most famous 800m men would be leading the charge with the most informed commentary.

Some people don't realise Rudisha's 1:42.15 in Rio would've won every single Olympic and WC in history outside of London 2012.

His endurance was Coe-esq. 3rd race in 4 days and able to run 1:40 & 1:42 in Oly finals.

The way he won in Beijing was also crazy. 54.xx at the bell and destroyed everyone 'Kipketer' style.

I would've loved Rudisha to be in that 96-01 era rather than '10-16.

We would've seen a few 1:40's between him and WK.

Doping wasn't "a big thing" in 1912. No one had a clue what they were doing then. In md and distance running, doping was a rarity, without any real knowledge or expertise, until the advent of blood doping in the 70's. It took off in the 80's and 90's and has been a big factor in the sport ever since.

This is a fabulous list. I do think there is something to be said for how far an athlete takes the record, to somewhat paraphrase Johnny Gray, into the "twilight zone". When Coe ran 1:41.73 in Firenze in 1981 that was as otherworldly as Rudisha's 1:40.9 (done on an incredible stage but believe Kipketer also had that time in him).

One suggestion is to maybe add a "vs peer group" criteria based on their event ranking for the year or use that in one of your other criteria.

If an athlete was ranked #1 in the world 4 or more years that would mean something significant. Similarly, if one was in the top 10 in the 800m for 10 straight years, that tells us a lot as well.

Do have this baked into one of your categories already?

Looking at it in this light bolsters Johnny Gray's standing in the 800 meters and merits for inclusion in the top 16 listing.

He was ranked in the Top 10 in the world 11 years, with 6 of them in the Top 5 and 4 in the Top 3 (2nd twice). #Legendary

Rudisha was #1 ranked in the world an incredible 7 times.

Coe was #1 in 4 years and top 10 in 9 years.

Borzakousky was only #1 one year but in the Top 10 in 10 years (closest to Gray's #)

Kipketer was #1 ranked in 6 years (second most) in the modern era.

There is absolutely ZERO chance Borzakovskiy was clean. Especially when you look at him at his best (the 2001 season). Gaunt, absolutely shredded - almost sickly looking and beat the world champ Bucher that year poking his tongue out at him up the home straight running 1.42.4. But as you mentioned, it’s impossible to believe that arguably the best Russian athlete in the federation (because he’s the best guy in the hardest event in track) at this time when doping in Russia was legitimately institutionalized, is somehow just this one outlier who stayed clean. Again, it’s completely implausible.

Yeah, I don't think people including him in are here are at all signaling that he's clean.

For Korir, he needs more consistency to be an all-time great. He is one of the best 400m runners ever to run the 800m. He is like a sprinter in that he can roll out of bed and still be able to run a creditable 400m if healthy (probably around 45-low). This is unique as I bet most out-of-shape guys (even the best ever) might struggle to break 47 or 48 without a lot of training. Korir can run 45 and 1:48 on basically nothing. But as we saw last year, there is a limit to him trying to race into shape while he is unable to train. If he has a strong season this year, you can overlook 2017 (debut season), 2019 (injury and still a 6th place in 400m), 2020 (pandemic ~ who cares), 2023 (injuries). But if not, it holds hime back historically to only have 3 truly good seasons, and 2 OK ones.

According to you, Coe IS a doper. Why do you think he should be on the list then?

ever heard of spacing?

jesus f christ

please use it next time

like you MUST have had an inkling that blocks of text like you have been doing arent the easiest to read.

PLEASE be more considerate in future

I didn't say Coe is a doper. You don't understand anything in these discussions. Go back to bed.

I don't agree. I'm a middle aged man who competed for his country and had reasonable success. I saw doping at every level. It is not an increasing phenomenon. I've seen the progression of the anti-doping movement and the increasing budget designed to uncover doping where it has always been. Doping has always been impossible to separate from achievement. The paradox is that, with increasing regulation and sophisticated testing regimes, and often criminal sanctions attending to positives now, some people are dissatisfied and point the finger. It is like saying: more money is being pumped in to reducing theft, increasing police present and bringing people to justice, therefore I think that evidence of documented crime is cause to think there is more theft. We wouldn't accept that logic.

Moreover, attending to the doping movement is words like "dirty". The opposite of dirty is clean, and anyone who engages in this type of rhetoric is doing so because it can be a screen for the dirt in them. It's simply scapegoating. I have a doctorate in mental health law and am a psychotherapist. I'm offering him this for free. I simply want to watch track and enjoy it. Positives happen; positives are sanctioned. Life goes on. Leave us to it, please.

You said it just yesterday. Fact.

No way was Coe better than Kiketer. He was slower. His two records were outliers he never got near again. His zero medals bows low before Kipketer's two.

On a lighter note, whatever happened to Wesley Vazquez, the big Puerto Rican who ran 1:44's and finally a 1:43 on the world B-meet circuit? Just kind of disappeared, prior to Arop taking over.

Anyhow it is good to see Arop continue the tradtion of tall 800 runners being better than short ones, including Coe.

I haven't. I know better what I think than a moron like you. Now **** off.

What a cheerful old man you are! 😂

If you are a middle-aged man then you have competed through those decades that doping has been a significant factor in the sport. There is nothing that suggests it has been reduced. You might note the latest news about 50 more busts coming out of Kenya. Improved antidoping discovers more doping; it doesn't show that doping is less than what it was.

That you object to the use of terms like "dirty" for doping and see condemnation of it as a form of scapegoating - for what? - suggests an acceptance of the practice, as simply part of the sport. We can accept doping exists as a fact but the existence of antidoping bodies shows it isn't accepted as a practice.

That my saying the obvious, which is that doping is as much a feature of the sport as it always has been and probably even more, lessens your enjoyment of the sport shows that you aren't comfortable with it and you would prefer not to know about it. It isn't fit for "polite" conversation.

If you are also saying it does occur but it isn't such a big deal because only a few are doping then I have to disagree with you about that. Everything I know about sports and this subject suggests to me it is right throughout the top of the sport. There are experts who agree.