Please be respectful of Semenya when you post in this thread. Whether you agree or disagree with the idea that she should be allowed to compete in women's sports, please realize she is a human who might read what you are writing.
Given the sensitive nature of this topic, we are requiring registration to post. Registration is free and you can still remain anonymous, but it cuts down on troll posts.
"In Semenya’s view, Semenya is a woman because Semenya says so."
And this aligns with the view of the Democratic party, which controls many major publications like . . . Time. And the New York Times which published a puff piece on Semenya's book the other day. ()
"This book is coming out in a time when anyone who steps out of the corrals of traditional gender risks being discriminated against and dehumanized, as Semenya has been."
That last line is exactly the gist of why this book would be important. We are in a time where people are using religious books and religious education to exact a battle against anything not traditional.
Intersex exists.
People can't just wish differences away.
If we make this partisan, we're losing a lot more than we're gaining.
No, we can't "just wash differences away" - and for that reason we can't ignore the effect of biological males competing in women's sports. That isn't "dehumanizing" anyone; it is ensuring women's sport remains a protected category.
That last line is exactly the gist of why this book would be important. We are in a time where people are using religious books and religious education to exact a battle against anything not traditional.
Intersex exists.
People can't just wish differences away.
If we make this partisan, we're losing a lot more than we're gaining.
No, we can't "just wash differences away" - and for that reason we can't ignore the effect of biological males competing in women's sports. That isn't "dehumanizing" anyone; it is ensuring women's sport remains a protected category.
Certainly. And we can do that moving forward. However, Semenya was legally allowed to compete when she did so technically and legally there was nothing wrong in competing.
We can both learn from this and also avoid castigating Semenya. Semenya owes no debt to those whom she beat because she legally beat them.
and by the way, the number of times she describes herself as threatening or wanting to get into a fistfight with people, male or female, with supreme confidence in the outcome, what could possibly mark her out as more obviously male?
Isn't this an example of "regressive, misogynist sex stereotype"? How does this make Semenya "obviously male"?
Would it make any difference if Semenya were a type of person who would avoid any physical confrontation? Would it be okay for Semenya to compete against women if she were that kind of person?
Throughout Semenya's book there are numerous passages in which Semenya boastfully reports many different instances where adolescent and adult Semenya has felt the urge, and made outright threats, to use Semenya's fists to beat or kill others - including teenage boys and grown men - who've displeased, crossed or otherwise offended Semenya.
As TFP_SA notes, Semenya describes these instances "with supreme confidence" that in any contest with anyone else - including scrappy teenage boys and strapping grown men in excellent shape - Semenya would undoubtedly be the victor, and the victor by a long shot too.
Quite a few female people are aggressive, confrontational and combative. Some of us have mean streaks and short tempers. Some of us have domineering personalities and tend to be "bossy" and "pushy."
But even the most aggressive, confrontational, combative, "pushy," ornery and supremely self-assured female adolescents and adults do not go around threatening to beat and kill teenage boys and grown men with our fists. We don't constantly find ourselves having to tamp down urges to use our fists to thrash and kill teenage boys and grown men, either.
Because growing up as female people, we learned - sometimes from very brutal firsthand experience - that once male people reach their teens, we female people no longer have a chance in hell of beating them up with our fists, much less killing them with our fists.
Moreover, by the time we ourselves turned 11, 12 and 13, we learned - again sometimes from brutal firsthand experience - that once males of our species are in their mid teens and certainly once they reach adulhood, most of the able-bodied ones can beat us to bloody pulps, knock us unconcious, fracture our skulls, break our arms and fingers and jaws, strangle us, rape us and kill us without working up a sweat.
In my view, pointing out that Semenya displays behavior and attitudes that mark Semenya as obviously male is not engaging in "regressive, misogynist sex stereotype[s]" like some say - it's simply engaging in pattern recognition. But as I see things, it is misogynistic to suggest that there's no noticeable difference between Semenya and female people who are combative, aggressive and confrontional - or female people who are butch.
This post was edited 15 minutes after it was posted.
I believe in science. I believe in scientific expertise. If the very genitalia which scientifically determines sex of a person is ambiguous then the actual sex is ambiguous... genetically.
This is gibberish that shows you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of the issues under discussion here.
Contrary to what you claim, genitalia are not the criteria which scientifically determine a person's sex.
Having genitalia that is ambiguous - or looks ambiguous at first glance - does not mean a person's genetic sex is ambiguous, either.
In fact, most DSDs occur in people whose chromosomal and genetic sex is 100% clear and unambigous. This is true even in the case of the few DSDs that most commonly cause people to develop genitalia that looks ambiguous. Such as classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH - a condition that is a DSD only in females, nearly all of whom are unambiguously 46,XX.
Semenya's DSD is due to an enzyme deficiency - 5-ARD2 - that occurs with the same frequency in both sexes, but which only affects the fetal sex development of males. This enzyme defiency makes it impossible to convert T into its more potent form, DHT.
In human fetuses, DHT is necessary for two parts of male sex anatomy - the penis and the prostate - to develop properly. Thus, male babies with 5-ARD come into the world with underdeveloped prostates and with penises that are maformed, minuscule or missing entirely. Sometimes the penis has grown inwards, creating a shallow indented dimple or pouch that gets mistaken for a vaginal opening.
Male babies with 5-ARD often come into the world with undescended testes too. As a result, their ball sacs are empty and their scrotums appear flattened or deflated, like miniature basketballs with the air taken out. Sometimes the appearance of the empty scrotal sac causes people to mistake it for labia (fused labia, typically).
If Semenya were female, Semenya's 5-ARD2 would have had no impact at all on Semenya's sex development prior to birth or at any other time in life.
5-ARD2 is caused by a mutation of a gene on chromosome 2, which is an autosome (meaning not a sex chromosome). So far, all the people known to have a DSD and atypical or ambiguous genitalia due to 5-ARD2 have been found to have the standard male sex chromosome pattern - 46,XY - and the male-determining SRY gene.
Everyone with Semenya's DSD has male DNA in every nucleated cell in their bodies and fully developed male gonads - testes, not ovaries. The testes of persons with Semenya's male-only DSD produce massive amounts of testosterone, resulting in circulating T levels that are either in the normal adult male range or exceed it.
What's more, everyone with Semenya's male-only DSD has male androgen receptors in good working order. Thus their bodies use the massive amount of T their testes pump out as males typically and normally do. They've all been through male mini puberty of infancy and male puberty of adolescence. In the process, they've obtained all the physical features that give males as a group such enormous advantages over females as a group in nearly all sports.
People with Semenya's male-only DSD often have fertility problems due to the unusual location of their testes and underdevelopment of their prostates and seminal vesicles. But none of them have any female organs at all. If persons with Semenya's male-only DSD are able to have bioligical children - as many have done, and many can do with medical assistance - it's because the gametes their male gonads make are male ones, namely sperm.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
I believe in science. I believe in scientific expertise. If the very genitalia which scientifically determines sex of a person is ambiguous then the actual sex is ambiguous... genetically.
This is gibberish that shows you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of the issues under discussion here.
Contrary to what you claim, genitalia are not the criteria which scientifically determine a person's sex.
Having genitalia that is ambiguous - or looks ambiguous at first glance - does not mean a person's genetic sex is ambiguous, either.
In fact, most DSDs occur in people whose chromosomal and genetic sex is 100% clear and unambigous. This is true even in the case of the few DSDs that most commonly cause people to develop genitalia that looks ambiguous. Such as classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH - a condition that is a DSD only in females, nearly all of whom are unambiguously 46,XX.
Semenya's DSD is due to an enzyme deficiency - 5-ARD2 - that occurs with the same frequency in both sexes, but which only affects the fetal sex development of males. This enzyme defiency makes it impossible to convert T into its more potent form, DHT.
In human fetuses, DHT is necessary for two parts of male sex anatomy - the penis and the prostate - to develop properly. Thus, male babies with 5-ARD come into the world with underdeveloped prostates and with penises that are maformed, minuscule or missing entirely. Sometimes the penis has grown inwards, creating a shallow indented dimple or pouch that gets mistaken for a vaginal opening.
Male babies with 5-ARD often come into the world with undescended testes too. As a result, their ball sacs are empty and their scrotums appear flattened or deflated, like miniature basketballs with the air taken out. Sometimes the appearance of the empty scrotal sac causes people to mistake it for labia (fused labia, typically).
If Semenya were female, Semenya's 5-ARD2 would have had no impact at all on Semenya's sex development prior to birth or at any other time in life.
5-ARD2 is caused by a mutation of a gene on chromosome 2, which is an autosome (meaning not a sex chromosome). So far, all the people known to have a DSD and atypical or ambiguous genitalia due to 5-ARD2 have been found to have the standard male sex chromosome pattern - 46,XY - and the male-determining SRY gene.
Everyone with Semenya's DSD has male DNA in every nucleated cell in their bodies and fully developed male gonads - testes, not ovaries. The testes of persons with Semenya's male-only DSD produce massive amounts of testosterone, resulting in circulating T levels that are either in the normal adult male range or exceed it.
What's more, everyone with Semenya's male-only DSD has male androgen receptors in good working order. Thus their bodies use the massive amount of T their testes pump out as males typically and normally do. They've all been through male mini puberty of infancy and male puberty of adolescence. In the process, they've obtained all the physical features that give males as a group such enormous advantages over females as a group in nearly all sports.
People with Semenya's male-only DSD often have fertility problems due to the unusual location of their testes and underdevelopment of their prostates and seminal vesicles. But none of them have any female organs at all. If persons with Semenya's male-only DSD are able to have bioligical children - as many have done, and many can do with medical assistance - it's because the gametes their male gonads make are male ones, namely sperm.
What I know in a nutshell is that she competed and won and complied with the tests... legally.
I'm okay with the fact that she legally won based on the rules at the time.
I believe in science. I believe in scientific expertise. If the very genitalia which scientifically determines sex of a person is ambiguous then the actual sex is ambiguous... genetically.
This is gibberish that shows you don't have even a rudimentary understanding of the issues under discussion here.
Contrary to what you claim, genitalia are not the criteria which scientifically determine a person's sex.
Having genitalia that is ambiguous - or looks ambiguous at first glance - does not mean a person's genetic sex is ambiguous, either.
In fact, most DSDs occur in people whose chromosomal and genetic sex is 100% clear and unambigous. This is true even in the case of the few DSDs that most commonly cause people to develop genitalia that looks ambiguous. Such as classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH - a condition that is a DSD only in females, nearly all of whom are unambiguously 46,XX....
Everyone with Semenya's DSD has male DNA in every nucleated cell in their bodies and fully developed male gonads - testes, not ovaries. The testes of persons with Semenya's male-only DSD produce massive amounts of testosterone, resulting in circulating T levels that are either in the normal adult male range or exceed it.
What's more, everyone with Semenya's male-only DSD has male androgen receptors in good working order. Thus their bodies use the massive amount of T their testes pump out as males typically and normally do. They've all been through male mini puberty of infancy and male puberty of adolescence. In the process, they've obtained all the physical features that give males as a group such enormous advantages over females as a group in nearly all sports....
Thanks, i was unaware of Semenya's 5arn2 condition. Do you know Semenya's T levels? From what i've read, hers are triple the value of a typical woman (15-70ng/dl), which would still leave her below the normal male range of 265-923. Though it could be her free T is very high. I'm no longer sure T levels are the best determinant.
I used to think that, to protect the rights of "natural women", Semenya should be banned from competing as a female, or be allowed to compete with males, but the more i read, the more apparent the difficulties are in establishing a biological definition of man/woman, and what to allow for those in the grey zone. The use of XX/XY testing results for sex determination was abandoned quite some time ago due to these difficulties. For instance some XX woman have naturally high testosterone, and so are ineligible to compete (though maybe they can with hormone treatment?). Since they were born that way, some consider this unfair, with the precedent being that a woman born with high amounts of growth hormone resulting in a 7 foot stature has a huge advantage in basketball, yet is not banned. Some woman test XY, but don't get the benefits of high T because they suffer from complete androgen insensitivity and their muscles don't respond, so likely(?) the high T has no impact (side note - most androgen receptors are around the deltoids and traps, which are very well developed on Semenya, so clearly no androgen insensitivity for her). Some XY people are woman socially and appearance wise, and some can even give birth. Should they be banned, or forced to take hormones to compete in female categories, or be forced to compete in the male category, or do we create a third category, which could also have cheaters? If these woman are forced to take hormone suppression (an unpleasant experience to say the least), should men with freakishly high levels also be forced to take treatment? Apparently the number of XY woman is about 50% higher then previously thought, about 1 in 15,000. So...i'm still reading for now, and glad i don't have Sir Coe's job.
BY MORTEN BUSCH Sex chromosomes usually determine whether you are female or male. Women are XX. Men are XY. However, genetically, a few women are actually men. They grow up as women with a woman’s body, and most only discover...
She’s the Olympic gold-winner whose elevated testosterone levels led people to question her right to compete. With a few choice words for World Athletics, the middle-distance runner talks about labels, leaked medical records...
How she looks in a swimsuit is, to the average person, somewhat at odds with her claim to be a "woman".
for me it's a big leery wink that at a stroke negates all the "raised as a girl"/"thought I was a girl" nonsense. this is a photo in CS's own book, ie it's one she chose/one of her favourites. taken on a school trip so presumably by a teacher. I know it was nearly 20 years ago and in Africa but on what planet does a teacher, who in the course of their work has presumably come into contact with hundreds/thousands of 15 girls, see someone with this kind of physique and who chooses to dress like this and think that this is a girl in any meaningful sense, either psychically or socially?
I might point out in response to that blog that complete androgen insensitivity syndrome has been found amongst some women athletes. They can compete as females under the present rules because they do not have male levels of testosterone. As with the woman above, despite being XY their condition makes them under-masculinized, so they appear female. But that isn't so with Semenya. That isn't her condition. She produces male levels of testosterone.
This is not accurate. A person with CAIS produces male level testosterone. Her body does not get masculinized because she does not have functioning androgen receptor.
I only posted that link because RR cited it to claim "intersex" is a dated term, while the blogger would be completely offended by RR's gamete fundamentalism.
Most female human beings don't see it that way. We believe we are female because we have distinctly female anatomy, physiology, genetics, chromosomes, bodily processes, chemistry and potential capacities. We don't define femaleness in humans as absence of "the very organs that would define actual manhood." We define femaleness in our species as the presence of the thousands of distinctly female physical characteristics that set our sex apart from, and make it very different to, your sex - and Semenya's.
Thousands of physical characteristics? Really? It's not just chromosomes and gametes?
This post was edited 37 seconds after it was posted.
As TFP_SA notes, Semenya describes these instances "with supreme confidence" that in any contest with anyone else - including scrappy teenage boys and strapping grown men in excellent shape - Semenya would undoubtedly be the victor, and the victor by a long shot too.
Isn't this a function of Semenya's size, physique and strength? Or is it a function of her sex?
Would a short, skinny and physically weak boy feel the same way? What about a woman like Gabi Garcia?
The statement that "some XX woman have naturally high testosterone, and so are ineligible to compete" isn't true.
The only athletes subject to restrictions on their natural testosterone levels in women's track & field and other women's sports are athletes with all of the following characteristics: male DNA/genetics (usually XY, but always SRY gene positive); fully-developed, functioning male gonads (testes) that pump out testosterone in amounts found solely in healthy males; and enough working male androgen receptors to enable their bodies to make use of the massive amounts of testosterone their testes produce in the male-typical ways that adolescent boys and grown men typically do.
XX female athletes are allowed to compete even with naturally high testosterone levels. No rules in track & field or any other sport that I know of place an upper limit on the natural T levels of genuinely female athletes.
This goes not only for female athletes who are 46,XX, it also goes for female athletes with other unusual sex chromosome patterns such as 45,X, 47, XXX, XX/XY and SRY gene- negative 46,XY.
Placing an upper limit on the natural testosterone levels in female athletes would be egregious sex discrimination, particularly on grounds of pregnancy - an experience that nine out of 10 female people will experience. After all, pregnancy is the single most common cause of elevated natural T in female people. (The normal range for natural T in females 18 and up is 0.2-1.68 nmol/l; during pregnancy, the normal range for natural T in females is 1.7-4.2 nmol/L.)
Pregnancy is not only a condition that the vast majority of female people will go through in our lifetimes - it's a condition that most girls and women experience during the same phase of life that are also our peak sports performance years. Whereas male athletes can and do become parents without their sports careers being negatively affected in any way, female athletes are not so lucky.
Since female athletes already contend with an array of difficulties and disadvantages related to ovualtion, menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, abortion, miscarriage and stillbirth that male athletes - and male DSD athletes like Semenya - don't have to deal with, I can't see how anyone could justify penalizing female athletes for getting pregnant by putting in place rules that declare female athletes who have "naturally high testosterone" are "ineligible to compete" like you allege.
For the record, there are also no restrictions on the natural T levels in female athletes who have elevated T for reasons other than pregnancy - such as polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), androgen-secreting tumors, and classic or late-onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH and LOCAH).
Thanks, i was unaware of Semenya's 5arn2 condition. Do you know Semenya's T levels? From what i've read, hers are triple the value of a typical woman (15-70ng/dl), which would still leave her below the normal male range of 265-923. Though it could be her free T is very high. I'm no longer sure T levels are the best determinant.
Back when Semenya and the IAAF struck a deal that Semenya could compete in the women's category if Semenya took drugs (oral estrogen) to lower Semenya's T, the upper limit set for Semenya's T was 10 nmol/L.
According to the CAS decision in Semenya's court case against the IAAF/WA, even when Semenya was on T-lowering medication, Semenya's T would go above the 10 nmol/L limit.
10 nmol/L is squarely in the normal male range. The reference range that WA uses says males 18 and up normally have natural T levels of 7.7-29.4 nmol/L.
The normal range for natural T in females age 18 and up that WA uses is 0.2-1.68 nmol/L.
In 2014, a paper was published about a study that IAAF and WADA did in 2011 to determine the normal T levels of the world's top athletes in women's track & field. The study tested the blood of 849 elite track & field athletes from 163 different countries who competed in the women's category at the 2011 IAAF World Championships in Daegu, South Korea. Ten of these athletes were either known to be XY DSD or to be doping.
In the 839 track & field athletes competing in the women's category at the 2011 IAAF World Championships who were not known to be either XY DSD or doping at the time, the median level of T was 0.69 nmol/L. Three-quarters of the athletes had T under 0.91 nmol/L.
The four athletes already identified as XY DSD who competed in the women's category at the 2011 World Championships in Daegu were found to have T levels of 15.6–29.3 nmol/L.
Semenya - who came in second in the women's 800 at Daegu and was later awarded the gold when the winner was disqualifed for doping - was one of the four XY DSD athletes tested for the study, but exactly what Semenya's T level was has never been revealed. All we know is that at the Daegu World Championships, Semenya had to have a T level of 15.6 nmol/L at minimum and 29.3 nmol/L at most.
So anyways, I would take what you have read about Semenya's T level being only "triple the value of a typical woman" with a proverbial grain of salt. Like much that has been written and said about and by Semenya over the years, that claim seems to be a load of hooey.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
OTOH wrote: side note - most androgen receptors are around the deltoids and traps
This is nonsense. Please don't spread BS like this.
Um. According to hormonereplacementtherapyla.com, most androgen receptors are in the shoulders, chest and neck. It's not nonsense. I understand that Semenya competing or having competed is not palatable for all, but using definite and sweepingly negatory terms like "nonsense" doesn't assist with a proper dialogue, especially when there is information out there that validates the previous post to make sense in a real-life matrix.
With Mr. Johnson, this is why I have a difficult time considering letsrun actual journalism. Time is a very reputable publication and to suggest that an interview with Caster Semenya is a waste of time and print is not doing justice for the dialogue about sport.
Did you even read what I wrote? I never wrote that reading it was a waste of time and you repeatedly said I did do that.
What I did repeatedly rant about was this piece is trying to pass as unbiased journalism, from a repoutable source when it's clearly biased and/or bad journalim.
How in the world someone doesn't mention the fact she is XY in 3000+ words is beyond me.
I can only think of 2 explanations.
1) They didn't mention because they didn't know which would mean they are unqualified to do the piece as they are not a subject expert / too lazy to do basic research.
2) They didn't mention as they don't want the reader to know it as it undermines Semenya's whole case. This shows the author is totally biased.
Regardless, the conclusion has to take away from either of the explanations is this is an example of terrible and/or biased journalism. And I just google and found out the piece was down by one of their Senior writers who has taught at the Columbia Journalism school. So not only is it embarrassing that this is passing as 'reputable' journalism, what's even scarier is this is what's being taught in schools today.
Of course, Sean Gregory is far from the first journalist who has 'forgotten' to tell you Semenya is XY.
Somehow the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC all failed to tell you a very key fact about Caster Semenya - she has XY chromosomes. Since the mainstream media's reporting on Semenya has been s...
Our Robert Johnson thinks the following Time Q&A with Caster Semenya is journalistic malpractice. How in the world they could fail to mention once in 3,000+ words that Semenya has XY chromosomes is beyond his comprehension. Full explanation here: https://t.co/eLYHO172INhttps://t.co/lzSEieuVv6
I used to think that, to protect the rights of "natural women", Semenya should be banned from competing as a female, or be allowed to compete with males, but the more i read, the more apparent the difficulties are in establishing a biological definition of man/woman, and what to allow for those in the grey zone.
The use of XX/XY testing results for sex determination was abandoned quite some time ago due to these difficulties.
Some woman test XY, but don't get the benefits of high T because they suffer from complete androgen insensitivity...
Apparently the number of XY woman is about 50% higher then previously thought, about 1 in 15,000. So...i'm still reading for now, and glad i don't have Sir Coe's job..
To set the record straight, it think it's best to be clear on what actually happened.
In the 1990s, the IOC and IAAF abandoned the practice of having all athletes competing at the highest levesl of elite women's international sports undergo mandatory DNA testing using cells obtained by swabbing the cheeks inside the mouth.
At the time that mandatory sex testing was discontinued, the testing protocols looked not just at the sex chromosomes, but for the presence or absence of the SRY gene.
Usually on the Y chromosome, the SRY gene plays the/a major role in determining whether a human zygote will develop as male with male rather than female gonads (testes rather than ovaries).
The IOC and IAAF decided to stop the mandatory DNA testing in response to complaints and legal challenges that came solely from, and on behalf of, XY DSD athletes competing in the women's category. The most famous of these was Maria Jose Martinez-Patino, a hurdler from Spain with an XY DSD (androgen insensitivty syndrome or AIS) born in 1961.
In 1985, mandatory DNA testing done at an event in Japan determined that Martinez-Patino was 46,XY - information that the then-24-year-old said came as a total suprise and a life-shattering shock.
The following year, Martinez-Patino's DNA test results were used to disqualify M-P from the Spanish women's national championships. The Spanish press got wind of this and cruelly outed M-P as XY DSD. M-P then became the subject of sensationalist headlines, tabloid coverage, public scrutiny, judgement and gossip - all of which M-P undestandably found painful and humiliating.
M-P launched a legal battle challenging the Spanish federation's and IAAF's decision regarding M-P's own eligibility - and also challenging the practice of DNA sex testing in the first place. In 1988, the IAAF reinstated the M-P's eligibility after determining that M-P has AIS.
But the chain of events that M-P's case put in motion didn't stop there. In the early 1990s (1992, I think), the IAAF decided to stop DNA testing of athletes in the women's category of elite sport altogether. In the late 1990s, the IOC followed suit.
When the IAAF and IOC decided to cease basing eligibility for women's competition on DNA testing, the sports organizations did so on the premise that it would be better and more scientific to base eligibility for women's competition on whether athletes had male testosterone levels and working male androgen receptors rather than on whether athletes were actually female.
The last time that mandatory DNA testing of elite athletes in the female category was done was at the 1996 Summer Olympics.
However, the abadonment of the mandatory DNA testing was done against the expressed wishes of elite female athletes at the time. An IOC survey of athletes competing in the female category at the 1996 Summer Olympics found that the overwhelming majority - close to 90% - wanted the cheek swab DNA testing to continue, and very few had any qualms about the test or anxieties about the results.
Also, it's important to note that at the time that mandatory DNA testing of athletes in the women's category was discontinued, the test results were not being used to automatically disqualify athletes from competing the female category. In the 1990s, a test result that showed an athlete seeking eligibility for women's events was XY or SRY gene positive would simply be a flag for officials to make further inquiries of and about that athlete.
At the 1996 Summer Olympics, the mandatory DNA sex testing of athletes seeking to compete in women's events showed that 8 were XY with DSDs. All 8 of XY DSD athletes ended up being deemed eligbile to compete - and AFAIK, all competed.
OTOH wrote: side note - most androgen receptors are around the deltoids and traps
This is nonsense. Please don't spread BS like this.
Um. According to hormonereplacementtherapyla.com, most androgen receptors are in the shoulders, chest and neck. It's not nonsense. I understand that Semenya competing or having competed is not palatable for all, but using definite and sweepingly negatory terms like "nonsense" doesn't assist with a proper dialogue, especially when there is information out there that validates the previous post to make sense in a real-life matrix.
Well if the website of "Hormone Replacement Therapy LA"- a company peddling "Top-Tier Hormone Replacement Therapy With Cutting Edge Technology!" - makes a claim, then gee-whiz it must be true.
After all, the website says: "We here at Hormone Replacement Therapy LA aim to make people’s lives better by providing top-notch hormone replacement therapy to diminish lingering ailments. With over a decade of experience in hormone replacement therapy, integrative medicine, and anti-aging medicine we offer the LA residents a better quality of life option."
Your contention that "most androgen receptors are in the shoulders, chest and neck" is balderdash.
In humans and other mammals, androgen receptors or ARs are found in a diverse range of cells, tissues and organs throughout the body such as the testes, penis, prostate, seminal vesicles, female reproductive tract, skin, bone, muscles, fat, brain, cardiovascular system.
However, the number, location, function and behavior of ARs is different in males and females.
AR activity is determined by the AR gene, which is located on the X chromosome.
I realize that USA's National Library of Medicine doesn't hold a candle to Hormone Replacement Therapy LA when it comes to being a source of trustworthy information about medicine and science, but just for shxts and giggles, here's what the NLM website says:
The AR gene provides instructions for making a protein called an androgen receptor. Androgens are hormones (such as testosterone) that are important for normal male sexual development before birth and during puberty. Androgen receptors allow the body to respond appropriately to these hormones.
The receptors are present in many of the body's tissues, where they attach (bind) to androgens. The resulting androgen-receptor complex then binds to DNA and regulates the activity of androgen-responsive genes. By turning the genes on or off as necessary, the androgen receptor helps direct the development of male sexual characteristics. Androgens and androgen receptors also have other important functions in both males and females, such as regulating hair growth and sex drive.
So the author / ex-journalism professor has to his credit responded to my tweet, alberit with a sarcastic reply and several others. Of course even after I pressed him about why he didn't mention she's XY, he's been unable to come up with an answer, deflecting about a bunch of non-sense as to how he linked to the definition of DSD.
Since we have you on here, can you please answer the question of the weekend 1) Why you didn't mention she's XY?
Come on man. That’s the question of the weekend? I linked to the definition of DSD. I say in the second graf that she could have lowered testosterone through drugs but refused. You know we’re talking bout the women’s 800, and so does the reader. You offer very specific alt ?s
The reason why this is journalistic malpractice is Time is supposed to be an objective, neutral forum. They left out a KEY fact about Semenya apparently on purpose as it would lead most people towards a conclusion they don't like. That's not neutral journalism - that's advocacy.
Plus when he link to defs of DSD, the average reader (hell even myself), has no idea which definition applies to Semenya. If you click on the link, he linked to it, talks about XX people, XY people, etc. So the reader would have no idea which applied to Semenya but the one they most likely read was XX as sit comes first.
For the record, PJ Vazel has pointed out that WA called the tests gender verification tests.
Well shame on them. Gender should be something that no organization - whether it's a govt, an airline, WA, etc. should ever ask about. It's a belief, like a religion. Plus there is no way to verify it - you can only verify and should only ask about sex.
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