I'm waiting for the invention of realtime lactate, that shows up on your watch like the heart rate. So you can adjust on the fly. Similar to continuous glucose monitor, we need a continuous lactate monitor.
Garmin come on...start working on this.
The K'Watch is that. Unfortunately the launch is delayed so maybe it won't happen imminently.
Bob Kennedy ran 12:58 without using lactate meter in training. Could he have run 12:53 if he had? Big maybe. But that’s the kind of jump we’re talking about and for that level of athlete. For the majority of us the constant pricking/ hassle is not worth it. Run longer repeats at your HM pace (preferably something like K repeats w/ short recovery) and 400s at your 10K pace. The volume would depend on your level of development and how you feel on the day. In fact, I think before you even incorporate “double” threshold most people would benefit from just doing their threshold training at the correct paces and doing 2 of those sessions each week, on different days while keeping in a shorter “speed” session to maintain leg turnover and efficiency at paces 5K and below.
Bob Kennedy ran 12:58 without using lactate meter in training. Could he have run 12:53 if he had? Big maybe. But that’s the kind of jump we’re talking about and for that level of athlete. For the majority of us the constant pricking/ hassle is not worth it. Run longer repeats at your HM pace (preferably something like K repeats w/ short recovery) and 400s at your 10K pace. The volume would depend on your level of development and how you feel on the day. In fact, I think before you even incorporate “double” threshold most people would benefit from just doing their threshold training at the correct paces and doing 2 of those sessions each week, on different days while keeping in a shorter “speed” session to maintain leg turnover and efficiency at paces 5K and below.
So because Bob Kennedy didn't do it in the 90s the whole concept is void? lol
For threshold paced training, the actual pace is not typically the main thing to look at…more-so, it is the effort level and blood lactate concentration that is associated with the pace. For example, a guy may use Daniel’s running formula calculator in order to get an idea of what their threshold pace may be around. However, for threshold training, this pace can’t be strictly the pace that the athlete goes at. Meaning, they may go slower or a bit faster some days depending on factors such as last nights sleep, nutrition that day, temp, weather, interval length, altitude, etc. So, for say 20x400 at threshold pace, an athlete may be able to go a little faster per 400, as compared to running a session of 5x4 minutes let’s say. Generally, threshold pace can be associated with lactate levels of between 2 and 4.5 mmol/l. However, the ideal lactate level may be different from day to day. hope this helps.
This post’s mentioning of sleep & nutrition’s impact is spot on. The life-stress variable’s impact on lactate is something I would never have appreciated until I started testing. A pace that generates 2.5 mmol/l one week can yield 11 the next week in the exact same session if an athlete has one terrible night of sleep. It’s something coaches talk about in the abstract but it becomes very apparent when you test lactate consistently.
This is a gross exaggeration. One night of bad sleep is not going to have such a big impact on lactate. Or heart rate. If it does, you’re already overcooking your training anyways or have other life stressors.
Bob Kennedy ran 12:58 without using lactate meter in training. Could he have run 12:53 if he had? Big maybe. But that’s the kind of jump we’re talking about and for that level of athlete. For the majority of us the constant pricking/ hassle is not worth it. Run longer repeats at your HM pace (preferably something like K repeats w/ short recovery) and 400s at your 10K pace. The volume would depend on your level of development and how you feel on the day. In fact, I think before you even incorporate “double” threshold most people would benefit from just doing their threshold training at the correct paces and doing 2 of those sessions each week, on different days while keeping in a shorter “speed” session to maintain leg turnover and efficiency at paces 5K and below.
So because Bob Kennedy didn't do it in the 90s the whole concept is void? lol
After experiencing a breakthrough this winter on the Easy Interval Method, Elmwooder Willie Moore decided to go all in on a new training approach: the Norwegian Double Threshold System. He spent 8 weeks training like the Inge...
So because Bob Kennedy didn't do it in the 90s the whole concept is void? lol
Reading comprehension isn´t your strong side.
You're right, I misread that completely. I'm stupid. Sorry.
This week I'm having our group do
AM: 4x1600 at MP(start at 5:35 and work down to 5:25), 90s rest
PM: 3x4x400 at 10k (73-76 for most), 45s rest the first set, then 60, then 70 for the last set. Rest for the last set may change if they look particularly tired or not.
Imagine not knowing about this and asking for advice on letsrun🤓💀.
Elementary sport physiology
You know it's crazy, I don't have to imagine not knowing it! I actually don't! That's what letsrun is usually for, educating people about running. Congrats on knowing everything, I wish I did! Feel free to contribute to the conversation. I would really value your input.
--
Anyway, I'm finding that our guys respond well to what is currently our marathon pace in the AM for the longer stuff.
In the evening, I usually keep it pretty short and they've been able to handle 10k pace. Typically I have them start about 2-3 seconds above 10k pace (they get a range) and then hitting directly on 10k pace for the last half. I find the most difficult part is talking to the boys about fueling correctly. I've cut the second workout for some if they've had class all day or admittedly weren't feeling great. These college kids aren't perfect!
So, my guess is that the paces people have talked to me about work well at sea level as well. I guess, for me, it's been more about managing the volume they do. We've started around 7 miles between the two workouts and worked our way up to 9-10 for some.
I think the most important thing is staying on them about hitting the paces and not doing "extra credit" since everyone is hyper motivated by the mere utterance of "double threshold." Their confidence has been at an all time high this year but I've made sure to mention very frequently that this is no magic bullet, as much as they'd like it to be.
We do HM and then 10k once in awhile. Doing it this week as a boost for NXR. We also do alternating tempo where the pace alternates between hm and 10k.
I Do think this can be done without measuring lactate. Experience gets you there.
You know it's crazy, I don't have to imagine not knowing it! I actually don't! That's what letsrun is usually for, educating people about running. Congrats on knowing everything, I wish I did! Feel free to contribute to the conversation. I would really value your input.
--
Anyway, I'm finding that our guys respond well to what is currently our marathon pace in the AM for the longer stuff.
In the evening, I usually keep it pretty short and they've been able to handle 10k pace. Typically I have them start about 2-3 seconds above 10k pace (they get a range) and then hitting directly on 10k pace for the last half. I find the most difficult part is talking to the boys about fueling correctly. I've cut the second workout for some if they've had class all day or admittedly weren't feeling great. These college kids aren't perfect!
So, my guess is that the paces people have talked to me about work well at sea level as well. I guess, for me, it's been more about managing the volume they do. We've started around 7 miles between the two workouts and worked our way up to 9-10 for some.
I think the most important thing is staying on them about hitting the paces and not doing "extra credit" since everyone is hyper motivated by the mere utterance of "double threshold." Their confidence has been at an all time high this year but I've made sure to mention very frequently that this is no magic bullet, as much as they'd like it to be.
We do HM and then 10k once in awhile. Doing it this week as a boost for NXR. We also do alternating tempo where the pace alternates between hm and 10k.
I Do think this can be done without measuring lactate. Experience gets you there.
How much volume do you typically go with the high schoolers? I do mine with college athletes so they're a little older. Do you still get those paces at 5-6+ miles in a session? I know you Texas folk are built different!
There isnt one correct pace in relation to your racing times. if you have been doing this training for a long time, you will be able to run fast and still be below the lactate level. If you are new to this type of training, you will have to run slower than what you would expect.
do this on tuesdays/thursdays Morning -> 5-6 x 6 minutes at 2 mmol
afternoon -> 8-10 x 3 minutes or 20-25 x 60 sec at 3 mmol
Saturday: morning -> hills 2 set of 10 x 200 m; relatively easy afternoon.
so you always have 1 or 2 easy days between the ”hard” days
yes, they do this training on altitude also.
I understand this, for the most part. This is what we do. I guess the point of my question for this thread was making sure I wasn't reading about paces and efforts that were transcribed from altitude. Based on how my guys handle it all, I'd say it's not. Our paces seem to work just fine. I was just curious what people at altitude do without lactate tests and whatnot other than "listening to breathing."
I'm also just curious how different coaches incorporate this, since the paces can be kind of different every day as well as the distances. For instance, you do things by time, which is different than what I've seen most coaches I talk to do. I might try that for our DT day next week.
Ok so you used a lactate meter and found out that most people arent doing it correctly. but did you see an improvement in race times? Too many have been caught up in the hype of double threshold. Ignoring the fact that all paces matter and for improvement of race times , we need to hit all paces in the spectrum.
Even without the high variability of blood lactate, few if any methods of calculating LT2, e.g. OBLA 4.0 mmol/l, have concordance with maximal lactate steady state so the people taking graded exercise tests while measuring lactate to try to determine their threshold aren't getting what they're promised, especially if they're doing VO2 max testing on the same day so one is done in a fatigued state, and it's all a moving target anyway if the training is actually effective so the practical benefit of getting an exact value is questionable.
Yes! Exactly right. I've never understood why people act like step tests are the gold standard.
For threshold paced training, the actual pace is not typically the main thing to look at…more-so, it is the effort level and blood lactate concentration that is associated with the pace. For example, a guy may use Daniel’s running formula calculator in order to get an idea of what their threshold pace may be around. However, for threshold training, this pace can’t be strictly the pace that the athlete goes at. Meaning, they may go slower or a bit faster some days depending on factors such as last nights sleep, nutrition that day, temp, weather, interval length, altitude, etc. So, for say 20x400 at threshold pace, an athlete may be able to go a little faster per 400, as compared to running a session of 5x4 minutes let’s say. Generally, threshold pace can be associated with lactate levels of between 2 and 4.5 mmol/l. However, the ideal lactate level may be different from day to day. hope this helps.
Which really just underscores that these workouts aren't "threshold" workouts at all. They're using lactate to ensure that the overall training load isn't too high and that the stimulus is primarily aerobic, but they are doing a huge range of different workouts.
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