$240,000 to 4 clubs???????

Wrong People? wrote:

If USATF are "the wrong people", why do the Hansons continue to run USATF championship events? Why do they have a club membership as an EDC? Compete in club champs, etc?

It will be very interesting to see if that continues. If you are a smart better, I suggest you bet against. There will be a huge pull back. Hansons normally send 5-8 athletes to Papa John's to support Jim Estes. I am guessing that number will not be the same in the future, but we will see. If you want to save this thread, I guarantee that New York just bought the trials as well. Time will tell.

Hansons will make new alliances and continue to prosper.

People want to give money to winners, I don't see why this is so hard to understand. If you are investing in a company, are you gonna invest in the one that is making a lot of money or the poor little guys who really need your help. In case you haven't figured this one out on your own yet, I'd suggest investing in the company that already makes a lot of money, it's a safer bet. Same logic applies here. If your goal is to invest in teh future of USA distance running you invest in the best runners, duh

This taken from the Hansons website:

"Now through Hansons recent joining with Running-USA and USA Track & Field, Hansons is designated as an official Team USA Training Center and all contributions (including membership fees) can be considered tax free donations. "

also

"Return Completed Application To:

Hansons Running Shops

ATTN: Olympic Development Program

3407 Rochester Rd.

Royal Oak, MI 48073

All contributions go to support Hansons Olympic Development Program

Make all checks payable to: Running USA - Michigan

Hansons Running Shop Team USA - Michigan is a program of Running USA INC., A 501(C) 3 Federal Tax exempt nonprofit organization Incorporated in Minnesota. Its IRS tax identification number US 36-4303950."

Now try this link:

http://apps.irs.gov/app/pub78

You can search charitable organizations recognized by the IRS. Hansons page makes it sound like you make your donation to Running USA, but send it to Royal Oak, MI. I couldn't find Running USA in MN, like Hansons site say. It's a nonprofit in CA. Do Hansons submit record of these dontations to Running USA in California? Why would Hansons turn down $$$ earmarked for Running USA or USATF if they are part of Running USA/USATF as their website indicates? Very strange.

All things will be changing immediately. Just watch.

Hansons still is a designated Team USA center which was set up through Running USA. Estes and Latimer have been out to try to get control of this money. They have been slowly having many races pull their money from Running USA and give it directly to USATF. It is a power struggle. This money from NYRR is the first major win for Latimer and Estes. USATF feels that if they manipulate all of the investors that Team USA will fall. I am guessing that Hansons have probably sided with the Running USA group. Right now there is a Team USA which includes Hansons-Team Cali-Big Sur-and Team Minnesota. None of these groups have pulled their connection from Team USA. The funding of these groups has been fuzzy in the past as each center had its own agreement with the Running USA group (leadership for Team USA). Your post points out that fuzziness.

Wouldn't it be better to designate runners who qualify for assistance and get the money to them and let them pick where they want to do their training and for whom they want to run, rather than saying you can get this funding provided you go here or there and get coached by this person

liffiker wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to designate runners who qualify for assistance and get the money to them and let them pick where they want to do their training and for whom they want to run, rather than saying you can get this funding provided you go here or there and get coached by this person

No, it wouldnt. That is what you call a contract. By designating a location and coach helps reduce cost per athlete (athletes share housing and some travel expenses) if you gave money out to individuals you would have to spend a lot more per athlete. And therefore not as many runners benefit.

liffiker wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to designate runners who qualify for assistance and get the money to them and let them pick where they want to do their training and for whom they want to run, rather than saying you can get this funding provided you go here or there and get coached by this person

Yes. That is currently the system of the Shoe companies. Nike gives Ritz a contract but he doesn't allow that money to filter to the coach. This is a system set up to pay a coach. Meb and Deena don't see a cent. Their coaches do.

Maybe that money should have went to elite and emerging clubs. Say $15000 was given to the top 16 clubs based on a combination of (club nationals, world xc trials, and us indoors and outdoors).

$15000 is not that much, but if the USATF can come up with a similar amount each year, then this post grad thing could really get off the ground. It would at least keep some clubs alive until they were more established. Many teams have been successful off of a small budget.

common cents wrote:

People want to give money to winners, I don't see why this is so hard to understand. If you are investing in a company, are you gonna invest in the one that is making a lot of money or the poor little guys who really need your help. In case you haven't figured this one out on your own yet, I'd suggest investing in the company that already makes a lot of money, it's a safer bet. Same logic applies here. If your goal is to invest in teh future of USA distance running you invest in the best runners, duh

USATF has always given all their money to the sprinters for the same reason. Logic says the winners of gold medals are the sprinters and therefore why invest in any distance runners. These training centers started to combat that mentality.

maybethis wrote:

Maybe that money should have went to elite and emerging clubs. Say $15000 was given to the top 16 clubs based on a combination of (club nationals, world xc trials, and us indoors and outdoors).

$15000 is not that much, but if the USATF can come up with a similar amount each year, then this post grad thing could really get off the ground. It would at least keep some clubs alive until they were more established. Many teams have been successful off of a small budget.

I just read Kevin Hanson's comments (hansons-running.com) on this issue and it sounds like he agrees with you.

So a good runner makes a deserving coach. Back to who makes whom. Seems if several outstanding runners go some place together, all of a sudden a coach is born, and that coach now deserves money?

unreasonable wrote:

Hudson's group, for the record, isn't even registered as a club. They're not registered as an elite development club, either. The others all are. Doesn't that strike anyone as odd? And yet they're now receiving large sums of money for being the very things they're not....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....what's really funny is: that money funding the boulder group is now at the local casino............

USATF recently selected 7 new clubs to be designated as Elite Development Clubs (EDC). The clubs are (with their USATF association included); adidas Raleigh TC (North Carolina), Big Sur Distance Project (Pacific), Boulder Performance Training Center (Colorado), Central Park Track Club (Metropolitan), Impalas Running Team (Pacific), Mizuno Runner's High (New Jersey), and VS Athletics Track Club (Southern California).

Atwater is right on the money, when USOC gives money to USATF it goes to whoever has the chance to win the most medals, not usually the distance runnes in US.

I think NYRRC is to be commended. They gave it to 4 good clubs. Maybe there are better clubs. So what. The bottom line is that they are helping the sport.

NYRRC has become so much better and Mary Wittenberg is the main one to thank. I also feel that Dave Monti being involved with the elite athletes for their races is also a big help towards improving the NYRRC.

I will never understand in a million years why something good becomes a negative and how this thread becomes a place to trash people like Brad Hudson and Jim Estes. Start a new thread for that, this one is about how NYRRC gave a quarter of a million dollars to help improve our sport.

I respect your good-hearted nature, bfullem. It's unfortunate that acts of charitable goodwill often intice heated criticisms on blogs and messages boards such as Letsrun.com - However, that's the beauty of a democratic society which is apt to question any act whether it's criminal or charitable, and evaluate reasons for or against such acts - then hopefully creating or inspiring other similar acts of goodwill, and so on.

You say: "They gave it to 4 good clubs. Maybe there are better clubs. So what. The bottom line is they are helping the sport." I disagree completely. If there are better clubs (which there most definitely are), then those clubs need awarding/rewarding. I would hope that you would EARN your reputation through accomplishment, and that you would be rewarded with supreme gestures such as NYRRC's. Are they helping the sport? That's really the end of the day question, isn't it? Or do they have alterior motives, or reasons for granting such and such a club such and such a dollar sum.

For people who don't know the full situation, it may be hard to understand when I say there are 3 deserving groups here, and 1 that's only notable quality is becoming an even more refined (and sadly successful) con job. Not all things are in reality as they seem, unfortunately. Some people in this world have inherited the innate talent of slithering through life, and sometimes they are so talented as to reach high levels in certain social spheres (in this case, the arena of USA distance running) -- but rest assured...as they slither higher and higher, once they reach the summit, and everyone can see clearly and HONESTLY -- the only view is that of a very successful snake.

liffiker wrote:

So a good runner makes a deserving coach. Back to who makes whom. Seems if several outstanding runners go some place together, all of a sudden a coach is born, and that coach now deserves money?

This logic seems really odd to me. Do you think that all of these outstanding runners ending up in one place in a coincidance? Do you think they all got together, found some random guy who happens to fancy running and said lets make him our coach? I don't get it. Maybe all the runners went there because there was something about that coach they all liked.

Great post.

I agree that NYRR did nothing wrong. They are supposed to leverage athletes. They are also supposed to leverage USATF to try to get the trials. Now lets sit back and see who was the easiest mark. I don't think all these athletes will absolutly run in New York. I do believe that USATF will choose NY for the mens trials. Now what the athletes need to understand is that NYRR were willing to spend an additional $240k to host the trials and that it went to these groups instead of the athletes pockets. If NY is not awarded the trials, I will be shocked.

So a really outstanding runner who has a coach who moves away and this runner wants to stay with this coach, must do it at his or her own expense, with the only choice being to move where the money is and possibly a coach he/she does not want to be with? That sure sounds non-productive. Or if you are a married deserving runner and you have to move where the money will support you, you leave your spouse behind,or your spouse has to leave a good job and hope to find another one in a new environment. Not all elite runners are married to other elite runners.