But in Maine transgender female are allowed to compete. What would transgender athletes receive in exchange for the proposed concession? What happens when they say “no”?
Good question. Technically, rules are changeable agency-wise. Look at the rulings regard 46-XY DSD Caster Semenya. They changed. The athletes run under the rules of the federation that guides them. In California, the CIF rules apply. In Tennessee, TSSAA rules apply. Etc. Etc .
Those who guide the athletes make the rules... the athletes don't make the rules.
You compromise with what is fair and codify it for athletes.
The red states made the rules to ban transgender athletes, but when challenged, injunctions were received. Maine is unlikely to be any different.
People are referring to comprise but what would the transgender athletes receive in exchange for giving up their right to compete?
This isn't really a thing in XC since everyone starts on the starting line.
Anyway, how does this work in terms of team scoring? School X is allowed to have 7 boys in the boys race and 7 girls in the girls race. Do they now run 8 in the girls race and 6 in the boys race in order to score 7 in each? If so, the team is only going to let the transgender female run if they're fast enough to make the top 7 on the boys team, which means that the trans individual in all likelihood won't get to compete anyway.
You're talking dual meets. In dual meets, it may be different... but anyone on the team can run... they can't all score. And in a team score... you need a full 5... not just one.
1-3-6-9- ??
Will always place under 2-4-5-7-8
Because no 5 has been established
But invitationals are different because it's by age.
No, I'm not talking about dual meets. Same applies to championship meets and invitationals.
Good question. Technically, rules are changeable agency-wise. Look at the rulings regard 46-XY DSD Caster Semenya. They changed. The athletes run under the rules of the federation that guides them. In California, the CIF rules apply. In Tennessee, TSSAA rules apply. Etc. Etc .
Those who guide the athletes make the rules... the athletes don't make the rules.
You compromise with what is fair and codify it for athletes.
The red states made the rules to ban transgender athletes, but when challenged, injunctions were received. Maine is unlikely to be any different.
People are referring to comprise but what would the transgender athletes receive in exchange for giving up their right to compete?
I'm confused about your question. I support their right to compete with a different overall effect.
I'm deflecting the second part to you because you are supporting red state legislation... what will you give transgender athletes after you ban them from competition?
You're talking dual meets. In dual meets, it may be different... but anyone on the team can run... they can't all score. And in a team score... you need a full 5... not just one.
1-3-6-9- ??
Will always place under 2-4-5-7-8
Because no 5 has been established
But invitationals are different because it's by age.
No, I'm not talking about dual meets. Same applies to championship meets and invitationals.
Since when? I was a 23 minute 3 mile Senior and still ran at Woodbridge. No runner on our team regardless of grade or time was precluded... including Laguna Hills, Dana Hills and even Mt. Sac. Yes...I ran a 25:18 at Mt Sac and was not last.
In Invitationals, it's by grade...if you lie as a coach, that's different.. but all things honest, it works
No, I'm not talking about dual meets. Same applies to championship meets and invitationals.
Since when? I was a 23 minute 3 mile Senior and still ran at Woodbridge. No runner on our team regardless of grade or time was precluded... including Laguna Hills, Dana Hills and even Mt. Sac. Yes...I ran a 25:18 at Mt Sac and was not last.
In Invitationals, it's by grade...if you lie as a coach, that's different.. but all things honest, it works
Maybe invitationals work differently in different states, but the question I brought up certainly applies to championships.
The red states made the rules to ban transgender athletes, but when challenged, injunctions were received. Maine is unlikely to be any different.
People are referring to comprise but what would the transgender athletes receive in exchange for giving up their right to compete?
I'm confused about your question. I support their right to compete with a different overall effect.
I'm deflecting the second part to you because you are supporting red state legislation... what will you give transgender athletes after you ban them from competition?
I don't support a ban.
But they wouldn’t be competing and would be kind of like a bandit. I’m not supporting anything. I’m just pointing out that your solution involves a concession on only one side.
Since when? I was a 23 minute 3 mile Senior and still ran at Woodbridge. No runner on our team regardless of grade or time was precluded... including Laguna Hills, Dana Hills and even Mt. Sac. Yes...I ran a 25:18 at Mt Sac and was not last.
In Invitationals, it's by grade...if you lie as a coach, that's different.. but all things honest, it works
Maybe invitationals work differently in different states, but the question I brought up certainly applies to championships.
That's apple bobbing.
A transgender female will not likely qualify for a male championship
And if a 18:50 wins for the transgender females then they win.
If a 19:01 female wins then she wins for the women.
I'm slow but you can't have it both ways....in Carlsbad in the 5000... should a man who wins get the win... even I say no.
Should the man win in Carlsbad?
Who should win in Carlsbad?
Why should they win?
I'm not a quitter.. you've not met anyone like me.
I'm confused about your question. I support their right to compete with a different overall effect.
I'm deflecting the second part to you because you are supporting red state legislation... what will you give transgender athletes after you ban them from competition?
I don't support a ban.
But they wouldn’t be competing and would be kind of like a bandit. I’m not supporting anything. I’m just pointing out that your solution involves a concession on only one side.
Yes.. it's like a bandit. It's up to the agencies to determine legitimacy and fairness moving forward. I support what makes everyone happy in a real life matrix... which does not include a manmade book. I will not accept the Bible as a counterargument.
But they wouldn’t be competing and would be kind of like a bandit. I’m not supporting anything. I’m just pointing out that your solution involves a concession on only one side.
Yes.. it's like a bandit. It's up to the agencies to determine legitimacy and fairness moving forward. I support what makes everyone happy in a real life matrix... which does not include a manmade book. I will not accept the Bible as a counterargument.
Another problem is consistency with other sports where the proposal wouldn’t work. Would XC be the only sport where transgender athletes can’t compete or the only one where they aren’t booted from the premises
But they wouldn’t be competing and would be kind of like a bandit. I’m not supporting anything. I’m just pointing out that your solution involves a concession on only one side.
Yes.. it's like a bandit. It's up to the agencies to determine legitimacy and fairness moving forward. I support what makes everyone happy in a real life matrix... which does not include a manmade book. I will not accept the Bible as a counterargument.
Every rule book in every state is a "man made" book. What you really mean to say is you support man made books and rules you happen to agree with but not the ones you don't. There is no solution that makes everyone happy. The solution is to simply use common sense. In this case, that means not allowing boys to race girls in a girls only race.
So now I have to race against people who aren't even in the same race as me? Come on.
Actually, yes.
And in 5k races with chip time, someone who runs a 19:10 with a gun time of 19:16 can lose to someone with a chip time of 19:06 and a gun time of 19:25 if the latter started later.
It's normal
It's a USATF rule that gun time wins the race. They are clear about this.
Also, in regards to XC you can't have a person in a race who is competing in another race. This will never happen. Forget about the transgender debate, you need to know who you are competing with for several reasons, most importantly to keep track of the team score as the race unfolds.
If they are in the race they count. If they are not allowed in the race they don't count. That debate is complicated and your idea is not a solution. Sorry.
Based on you starting this thread… you are those people.
I'm an avid supporter and activist and umbrella for the LGBTQIAP2S+ community at large as well as for autism, Asperger's, physical challenges, mental challenges and a lot of other Humanitarian ideals.
Absolutely.
Well said . Perhaps you should share your umbrella with some people on here so their necks don't get so burnt.
it would be great, but I think takes away from the girl that wins the race. I have never won an xc race so I wouldn't nlknow how it feels to win a big invite, but it must feel amazing and it would be disgraceful to take that away from someone.
it would be great, but I think takes away from the girl that wins the race. I have never won an xc race so I wouldn't nlknow how it feels to win a big invite, but it must feel amazing and it would be disgraceful to take that away from someone.
They're not "taking" it away from anyone. Let's not let a transgender person win or experience joy or actually love themselves. That would just be terrible
If someone has transitioned, they can run with the gender that they transitioned into, but their standings will count under their biological sex.
They can see how this plays out with the transgender females first. Someone like Soren can compete with the females but the resultant 19 or so will be factored into male placing.
It seems fair.
The solution is so much simpler than this. 'Identify' however you wish, use whatever name you want, but compete against your sex. The result can list Soren as 'female', (even though he's not, we're generously humoring his belief in a token way that doesn't take anything from girls in this scenario) in the boys' race. Boys would be told that some of their competitors identify as girls because they have 'gender' beliefs, but they are fairly competing against those of their sex.
It would be an opportunity to respect and tolerate the beliefs of others without being forced to adopt those beliefs as reality.
It's actually incredibly simple. There are 2 divisions: (1) female, and (2) open. Whatever your gender, you can only compete in the female division if you are biologically female. No one has to pretend they are a gender they don't identify with. I don't understand why all sports organizations can't simply adopt this (I realize some have).
this would surely encourage biologically female runners to alter their appearances to seem extremely masculine, so as to trick their competitors into thinking they were transgender, and that aren’t a threat in the competition. Do we really want our high school girls to get breast reductions and Adam’s apples implanted??
this would surely encourage biologically female runners to alter their appearances to seem extremely masculine, so as to trick their competitors into thinking they were transgender, and that aren’t a threat in the competition. Do we really want our high school girls to get breast reductions and Adam’s apples implanted??
Tricking is just ridiculous. I'm talking about legitimate competition fairness.
So many of you are married to a black and white/yes and no Judeo-Christian Hillsdale society that is being romanticized by those on trial and those who are wayward. Just yesterday, Glenn Beck was hawking Blaze TV because advertisements aren't enough.
I'm not a grifter. I'm just someone who delved in athletics and crossed through distance running and who supports competition.
Running is the least political thing I can think of. All people (including transgender people) can run .
there may or may not be a right to compete, we dont need to debate that because the overwhelming fact is that noone has a right to be 'competitive'; being competitive is a mixture of genetics, assistance and hard work.
I compete, but i am not competitive, since my received genetics are poor (my uncle was a competitve xc runner, so the genes are somewhere in the fam, just not expressed in me).
same with transgenders. when they choose to transition, they choose to go into a different pool. this does not alter their right to compete, it changes their relative competitiveness; for f-m it make them uncompetitive, from m-f it makes them unfairly competitive.
and thus we have to protect women's sports. trans are not excluded from competing.
you havent mentioned in your 'solution' what changing room they use.