why don't we just build a one mile track with wavelights, pacers and mandatory supershoes and run it 26 times. How about throwing a few hills in these races - dump the pacers - run women seperately so they cant use men to pace them. It's getting boring and turning off the casual fan who watches races on tv
Listen... Kyle Merber is soft. One of the softest runners in America. The whole podcast and citius mag thing he is trying to do... Softer than snowflake ice cream...
'omggg I love track and field, it's the best sport, so many people should be watching it' Shut uppppp. They sound like Captains of the chess team, complaining about how it should be more popular.
Chess is arguably more popular than running right now lol
So you're saying runners should cheat with vibrating anal beads rather than drugs?
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter
I have a problem with time trial marathons. It was annoying to watch chicago and see most of the elite field clipping along with their own personal pacer. What the heck is that? It turns an already slow paced sport and makes it positively boring. Most of the time people are way too ambitious with the pace group they pick, so the only suspense is "how long are they going to be running on pace? How far will they make it before they fall off?" Probably 90% of the time athletes fall off pacers, RARELY do marathons kick from pace groups.
100% agree. What is with these american women (Molly seidel) getting a personal pacer to take through the whole race? What about Emily Sisson who followed right behind a male pacer till 41.9k of her AR marathon?
merber probably just has sour grapes cos he's only done 1 hilly marathon, and 1 super fast course marathon which he just broke 230. ***applauding all of the guys and girls who time trialed a good marathon***... though I do think time trialing the marathon at this point is silly, just do chicago, cim, indy, philly, or houston? the pandemic is over!
The best US female marathon this fall was 9th place at WC by Lindsey Flanagan
The best US male marathon this fall was 13th place at WC by Zach Panning
Both of these athletes beat more sub 2:20 (women) and sub 2:07 (men) than any other US marathoner did this fall. However it was hot so these performances were dismissed. The public claims to want head to head competition but are only impressed by times.
They could make the 3 big domestic marathons have a special standard like World Athletics does. It’s what top 5 there is worth the same as the 2:08:10 standard, so maybe they could make the top 25? Top 50? Get an OTQ in NY, Boston and Chicago. I am honestly not sure of how quick the drop-off is.
My argument against doing this is it's hard to get into NY/Boston/Chicago for a 2:18 type runner. They aren't going to get into the elite field, and they probably have to pay the massive entry fee as well, and pay their hotel and airfare. A 2:17/2:18 type runner could go to a mid level marathon and get a free hotel room, and possibly even some prize money around $1k.
But the McKirdy 'time trial' was no different from Chicago or Berlin or any other race. All races people show up trying to run fast, and there are a few different pace groups. There were pacers at Chicago and Berlin doing around 2:01 pace and then further back around 2:06/2:07 and probably others. If Merber is singling out the McKirdy race, then that makes no sense to me. Most races have pacers, and people seek out the flattest courses to hit the standard. It's why Fauble went to Berlin, flat course and people to run with trying to hit a fast time.
I genuinely don't understand why I keep hearing that time trial type marathons aren't racing. A race is to see who can get from point A to point B the fastest. But we want slower runs? It makes no sense.
A race is to see who can get from point A to point B first and of course whoever does that fastest wins. But in these time trial races getting to the finish first is not the main goal. Achieving a certain time is. Remember when they'd have the 10,000 meter track races at Stanford in the early season so that people could get their Olympic standard or their OT standard times? No one really cared about their place. Everyone running would much rather come 5th in 27:20 than first in 28:10. I suppose you could call it racing because you're racing the clock but in a true race place is the priority.
That's a bit of a different story. I was more (maybe mistakenly) referring to the idea that marathons like Berlin are time trials.
I suppose this race and the one you write about are a different scenario though. In that scenario I agree with you (and Kyle), that is kind of BS.
merber probably just has sour grapes cos he's only done 1 hilly marathon, and 1 super fast course marathon which he just broke 230. ***applauding all of the guys and girls who time trialed a good marathon***... though I do think time trialing the marathon at this point is silly, just do chicago, cim, indy, philly, or houston? the pandemic is over!
yeah i would think that running turn after turn on a looped marathon course has got to be tougher than a conventional marathon course. I also think there is a huge phycological boost from running an interesting and engaging course, I think that helps distract you from obsessing over your splits and perceived effort.
Ive raced 7 marathons (run the distance many more times), pr 2:24 so chances are I would beat you. If you are faster then that, I applaud you and I admire your performance.
I guess I should have preferenced my post by saying "in my opinion". Personally I would much prefer to run an interesting course than to just grind lap after lap of the same thing. I am not a track guy, can you tell? In fact, I intentionally hit the track for workouts when I want to work on mental toughness.
Obviously he wasn't there watching the races unfold lap after lap. There were pace charts posted for each split per lap and people spread out around the 3 mile loop cheering. The finish of both races was exciting with the announcers counting down the last couple of minutes under the standards and people killing themselves to make it. It was a great finish, a lot of happy people celebrating. And the women's winner ran one of the FASTEST debut's off ALL-TIME. They did a great job with the fluid bottles and logistics were easy. The bottom line is you don't need all the bells and whistles to run fast. Just a nice course, weather and opportunity. Distance runners train every day miles and miles without fanfare and get the job done.
I was told basically this by a friend who was there. I'd like to see more of these- in a park, get spectators, concessions available, music. It could be a fun atmosphere. Obviously it wouldn't work for a mass marathon but it's still a positive concept.
No one is coming to watch except for spouses and some family members
My argument against doing this is it's hard to get into NY/Boston/Chicago for a 2:18 type runner. They aren't going to get into the elite field, and they probably have to pay the massive entry fee as well, and pay their hotel and airfare. A 2:17/2:18 type runner could go to a mid level marathon and get a free hotel room, and possibly even some prize money around $1k.
But the McKirdy 'time trial' was no different from Chicago or Berlin or any other race. All races people show up trying to run fast, and there are a few different pace groups. There were pacers at Chicago and Berlin doing around 2:01 pace and then further back around 2:06/2:07 and probably others. If Merber is singling out the McKirdy race, then that makes no sense to me. Most races have pacers, and people seek out the flattest courses to hit the standard. It's why Fauble went to Berlin, flat course and people to run with trying to hit a fast time.
Definitely fair enough as far as the financial side. It is cool to see those old stacked Boston marathons that are linked from time to time. Maybe the way forward is a midsize marathon national champs (can change venues) and can have some top 10 prize money and auto berths for Trials. USATF could chip into this idea and build more incentives to get it packed with sub-elites.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
The disdain for Merber isn’t surprising because he is eating LRC’s lunch. The man writes a weekly newsletter, while holding a full-time job, that provides more reporting and information than the Brojos and Gault can muster. He has connections and access to relevant voices in the sport and his takes are most often measured and thoughtful. No wild proclamations and manufactured anger to draw podcast listeners and message board clicks. As Let’s Run increasingly becomes a site where old men bray and bellow for the amusement of other old trolls, The Lap Count rises above as a pleasant means of staying up to date on the world of elite running.
Marathon courses with multiple loops and 2+ hours of constant fan experiences should be the norm. Any new marathon trying to make a statement should be willing to try this format.
Prescient SJD. Run around a mall or prestigious strip place and have instant fans and X cover.
A race is to see who can get from point A to point B first and of course whoever does that fastest wins. But in these time trial races getting to the finish first is not the main goal. Achieving a certain time is. Remember when they'd have the 10,000 meter track races at Stanford in the early season so that people could get their Olympic standard or their OT standard times? No one really cared about their place. Everyone running would much rather come 5th in 27:20 than first in 28:10. I suppose you could call it racing because you're racing the clock but in a true race place is the priority.
A great, HUGE majority of people in every single race ever are not racing for the win.
True. But we're talking about the people at the front of the race and there is a difference between a race where you're happy to have won no matter the time and a race where you're happy with your place no matter how far back you were as long as you got a desired time. Most road racers today take the second approach.
A race is to see who can get from point A to point B first and of course whoever does that fastest wins. But in these time trial races getting to the finish first is not the main goal. Achieving a certain time is. Remember when they'd have the 10,000 meter track races at Stanford in the early season so that people could get their Olympic standard or their OT standard times? No one really cared about their place. Everyone running would much rather come 5th in 27:20 than first in 28:10. I suppose you could call it racing because you're racing the clock but in a true race place is the priority.
That's a bit of a different story. I was more (maybe mistakenly) referring to the idea that marathons like Berlin are time trials.
I suppose this race and the one you write about are a different scenario though. In that scenario I agree with you (and Kyle), that is kind of BS.
People see this differently but to me any race where you've got formal pacers is more time trial than race.
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