First off, were you there? I get it looks embarrassing on paper it's but if you're gonna act like it's rule breaking bad then this needs to be so clownishly bad you get the equivalent of a red card or auto racing black flag for doing it. I consider what they did poor for a D1 but not so bad you wave them off the course. I will address why further down.
Second, it looks to me like they deliberately ran the B or C team, a few guys with no XC meets in TFRRS at all, a couple with very few. Is the "tank" the selection or their effort?
Third, I half wonder if they had an issue with the coach as opposed to the meet. I am curious why a team given a chance to run a varsity XD XC meet runs in a line. I kind of doubt it's "contractual obligation." It might be more, "I signed up for fall practice to train for the 800m not be meet filler." Based on their spring TF events. It feels to me like the time my HS XC made a pair of us soccer players run a 10k for time with the team as a practice and we deliberately loafed it, knowing we had a meet that weekend plus select games on Sunday. He got angry but technically we ran his 10k.
Last, I would assume that at college level "honest effort" would be an objective standard you could apply to any meet on down to D3. Or at least to every athlete in D1. Not a subjective standard relative to that athlete. Otherwise you'd be advocating the absurdity of tossing a Princeton runner for what some kid at Rutgers-Camden on their XC team couldn't do on his best day, who you wouldn't "red card" for averaging 9 minute miles but trying his best.
I am pretty sure the rule is really meant for, say, a miler walking their race at an obvious slow pace, a hurdler who hops out of the blocks then either pushes or kicks over each hurdle slowly, or a "long jumper" who like stops on the board then does a three foot bunny hop. Truly "do not waste our time" stuff that could be the basis for banning them next week. A real "red card" performance.
Oh, I get why you are upset, and since there is no way this traditional meet is ended, the practical response is either gut it out with the "A" team, or send a sincere "B" effort instructed to compete or hang up their spikes/runners. But calling it like a rules violation, no. To me a rules violation has to be beneath any possible mascot "Rudy" that ever sees a meet, perhaps even worse than the slowest D3 jogger you ever saw, and this is not that.
That is a long post filled with nonsense arguments. Having 5 nonsense arguments isn't more convincing than 1 nonsense argument.
How about this gem: " I am pretty sure the rule is really meant for, say, a miler walking their race at an obvious slow pace, a hurdler who hops out of the blocks then either pushes or kicks over each hurdle slowly, or a "long jumper" who like stops on the board then does a three foot bunny hop"
Really, you are pretty sure that's what the rule is for? A miler walking their race? A hurdler just pushing over the hurdles? A long jumper doing a 3 foot bunny hop? That's the argument you are going with? The rule is only for stopping people from doing incredibly egregious F-U behavior? The standards of competing aren't any higher than that in college, and shouldn't be?
The guys who ran were all mid d guys. Obv it was a workout. I don’t see a big deal in not putting in ur best lineup for a meet that ultimately doesn’t matter. It’s not like Harvard but their top 7 guys in the race either. Princeton is prob working out who is going to make their top 7, so they are keeping their younger guys on the same schedule as the older guys in terms of racing.
I was inclined to think the OP was an idiot then I looked at the actual results. The Princeton runners were way DFL and all ran slower than 6 minute pace for a 6k. That’s not tempo. That’s not even threshold. For these guys, that’s jogging. WTF is that? The Princeton women actually raced. Coach couldn’t bother to at least turn this into a workout? Consistent with my experience with runners from the various ivies: Princeton guys are d-bags.
1 Owen Karas Yale 17:56.8 1 2 Sean Kay Yale 18:08.3 2 3 Shane Brosnan Harvard 18:11.6 3 4 Stephen Moody Yale 18:17.1 4 5 Daegan Cutter Yale 18:29.9 5 6 Calvin Katz Yale 18:30.0 6 7 Tanish Chettiar Yale 18:39.0 7 8 Jeremy Williams Harvard 18:41.8 8 9 Ben Shryock Harvard 18:44.3 9 10 Martin Riddell Yale 18:56.7 10 11 Sameer Das Harvard 19:11.8 11 12 Austin Montini Yale 19:27.2 13 Oliver Adler Harvard 20:48.1 12 14 Josiah Taylor Princeton 23:32.3 15 14 Joseph Fast Princeton 23:32.3 13 14 Jordan Kaplan Princeton 23:32.3 14 17 Connor Chen Princeton 23:32.4 16 17 Jack Kenkel Princeton 23:32.4 17
I was inclined to think the OP was an idiot then I looked at the actual results. The Princeton runners were way DFL and all ran slower than 6 minute pace for a 6k. That’s not tempo. That’s not even threshold. For these guys, that’s jogging. WTF is that? The Princeton women actually raced. Coach couldn’t bother to at least turn this into a workout? Consistent with my experience with runners from the various ivies: Princeton guys are d-bags.
1 Owen Karas Yale 17:56.8 1 2 Sean Kay Yale 18:08.3 2 3 Shane Brosnan Harvard 18:11.6 3 4 Stephen Moody Yale 18:17.1 4 5 Daegan Cutter Yale 18:29.9 5 6 Calvin Katz Yale 18:30.0 6 7 Tanish Chettiar Yale 18:39.0 7 8 Jeremy Williams Harvard 18:41.8 8 9 Ben Shryock Harvard 18:44.3 9 10 Martin Riddell Yale 18:56.7 10 11 Sameer Das Harvard 19:11.8 11 12 Austin Montini Yale 19:27.2 13 Oliver Adler Harvard 20:48.1 12 14 Josiah Taylor Princeton 23:32.3 15 14 Joseph Fast Princeton 23:32.3 13 14 Jordan Kaplan Princeton 23:32.3 14 17 Connor Chen Princeton 23:32.4 16 17 Jack Kenkel Princeton 23:32.4 17
Why does every Ivy Leaguer feel the need to tell Letsrun that they went to an Ivy? This whole thread is a bunch of 50 year old men who went to Cornell decades ago complaining about the purity of the sport. You guys don’t look smart when you do this.
Why does every Ivy Leaguer feel the need to tell Letsrun that they went to an Ivy? This whole thread is a bunch of 50 year old men who went to Cornell decades ago complaining about the purity of the sport. You guys don’t look smart when you do this.
Hey hey. As someone who is close' to that age and loves Cornell and went to Princeton and considers himself a friend of both the Princeton and Harvard coaches, I'm offended by your comment.
I have a hot take on this one but want to sleep on it before I go on an epic Rojo Rant. For the record, I believe Wejo was at the meet as I got a video of him from it.
I'm going to filter myself for the time being. Let all my opening day NFL beers clear the system before I rant, if i do.
But can someone make sure I have all the facts? Based on weldon's video, Princeton clearly ran a c team who didn't even try and was laughing about it. But what about Harvard? Was this a B team that tried? Or a C team? How many eligible, healthy guys sat out? And did all of the guys who ran give 100% effort?
I guess succintly what I'm asking is this - Tell me what # on the team were the guys that ran for both Princeton and Harvard and if they gave 100% effort. Same thing for Yale.
No offense to my all my yale buddies - I once said I had two dream jobs in life - Texas basketball caoch or Yale xc coach - but i have a real hard time believing yale is better than harvard or princeton at anything related to running.
Why does every Ivy Leaguer feel the need to tell Letsrun that they went to an Ivy? This whole thread is a bunch of 50 year old men who went to Cornell decades ago complaining about the purity of the sport. You guys don’t look smart when you do this.
Hey hey. As someone who is close' to that age and loves Cornell and went to Princeton and considers himself a friend of both the Princeton and Harvard coaches, I'm offended by your comment.
I have a hot take on this one but want to sleep on it before I go on an epic Rojo Rant. For the record, I believe Wejo was at the meet as I got a video of him from it.
I'm going to filter myself for the time being. Let all my opening day NFL beers clear the system before I rant, if i do.
But can someone make sure I have all the facts? Based on weldon's video, Princeton clearly ran a c team who didn't even try and was laughing about it. But what about Harvard? Was this a B team that tried? Or a C team? How many eligible, healthy guys sat out? And did all of the guys who ran give 100% effort?
I guess succintly what I'm asking is this - Tell me what # on the team were the guys that ran for both Princeton and Harvard and if they gave 100% effort. Same thing for Yale.
No offense to my all my yale buddies - I once said I had two dream jobs in life - Texas basketball caoch or Yale xc coach - but i have a real hard time believing yale is better than harvard or princeton at anything related to running.
You own the site. We know about your past because you own the site. If we didn’t know about your past and you showed up to gripe in Ivy League threads while expressing your Ivy League ties, you would be who I’m talking about. But you are not who I’m talking about. This time anyway lol
I was inclined to think the OP was an idiot then I looked at the actual results. The Princeton runners were way DFL and all ran slower than 6 minute pace for a 6k. That’s not tempo. That’s not even threshold. For these guys, that’s jogging. WTF is that? The Princeton women actually raced. Coach couldn’t bother to at least turn this into a workout? Consistent with my experience with runners from the various ivies: Princeton guys are d-bags.
1 Owen Karas Yale 17:56.8 1 2 Sean Kay Yale 18:08.3 2 3 Shane Brosnan Harvard 18:11.6 3 4 Stephen Moody Yale 18:17.1 4 5 Daegan Cutter Yale 18:29.9 5 6 Calvin Katz Yale 18:30.0 6 7 Tanish Chettiar Yale 18:39.0 7 8 Jeremy Williams Harvard 18:41.8 8 9 Ben Shryock Harvard 18:44.3 9 10 Martin Riddell Yale 18:56.7 10 11 Sameer Das Harvard 19:11.8 11 12 Austin Montini Yale 19:27.2 13 Oliver Adler Harvard 20:48.1 12 14 Josiah Taylor Princeton 23:32.3 15 14 Joseph Fast Princeton 23:32.3 13 14 Jordan Kaplan Princeton 23:32.3 14 17 Connor Chen Princeton 23:32.4 16 17 Jack Kenkel Princeton 23:32.4 17
Why does every Ivy Leaguer feel the need to tell Letsrun that they went to an Ivy? This whole thread is a bunch of 50 year old men who went to Cornell decades ago complaining about the purity of the sport. You guys don’t look smart when you do this.
Where did I say I went to an Ivy? I didn’t say that and I didn’t go to one. Your insecurity is showing a bit, my friend.
How is this different then another sport not playing their top players? Sitting players to protect them from injury. Stop crying, move on.
It wasn't that they didn't play their top players. It was that their B/C/D team made a joke of out the race and jogged it together far behind the rest of the field as though they were out for some beginner Galloway clinic.
Why does every Ivy Leaguer feel the need to tell Letsrun that they went to an Ivy? This whole thread is a bunch of 50 year old men who went to Cornell decades ago complaining about the purity of the sport. You guys don’t look smart when you do this.
Where did I say I went to an Ivy? I didn’t say that and I didn’t go to one. Your insecurity is showing a bit, my friend.
1) Interesting that results are up on Yale website, but nothing on Princeton Men's Cross Country page. Link below in case you want the source. Sports Information Director probably called Princeton coach to ask, what should we write up about this meet, and coach said "no need".
2) I know colleges waste money, but paying 5 guys and a coach to travel to CT for this is a waste of budget. AD should at least be a little pissed about that.
3) Yes, this is absolutely TERRIBLE for the sport. We need to be supporting dual and tri-meets where there is a team score against rivals more, not having one team jog them.
4)The points scoring for adding meetings after October 1st (or whatever the deadline is) is part of the problem. It means teams run 1-2 big invites against top teams at pre-nationals to get the points in case they need at large bid, but losses in September don't really matter. College football is kinda going this route by making 12 teams make playoffs so a 2 loss team will make it in the future. How to fix this? Make dual meet victories count double vs an invite win.
5) But it's all about peaking for 1 meet at the end and you train through the season?!? Tell that to professionals, that run at World Champs then come back and run 2-3 times afterward for World Records or to make $$$. Yes our sport has some element of tapering and progression to peak at the right time, but this has gone too far and makes our runners soft (or burned out because they race too much)
Most schools now run no dual/tri meets, so this HYP is like a d3 Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan meet. It's fine to keep it on the schedule as meet 1, and coaches can use as they see fit. Obviously, the real meet is heps.
Most schools now run.
1 - early Sept junk meet - a team of 5 will run, but often not the stars.
2 - invite 1
3 - invite 2 - often pre nats
4 -conference
This gets them the minimum of 4 meets with 5 runners to qualify as a valid NCAA xc team.
But can someone make sure I have all the facts? Based on weldon's video, Princeton clearly ran a c team who didn't even try and was laughing about it. But what about Harvard? Was this a B team that tried? Or a C team? How many eligible, healthy guys sat out? And did all of the guys who ran give 100% effort?
I guess succintly what I'm asking is this - Tell me what # on the team were the guys that ran for both Princeton and Harvard and if they gave 100% effort. Same thing for Yale.
No offense to my all my yale buddies - I once said I had two dream jobs in life - Texas basketball caoch or Yale xc coach - but i have a real hard time believing yale is better than harvard or princeton at anything related to running.
No one is against running a B or C team at a race or having an A or B team tempo a race. The point is that Princeton put out a C team and had them complete a recovery run. Harvard and Yale might've been at 70-80% of what they could've done, but Princeton was at 5%.
If a basketball team went out with the last 5 guys on the bench and only had them practice bounce passes and never let them take a shot, we would be up in arms and their conference would likely take action against them. That is the comparison we are talking about.
How is this different then another sport not playing their top players? Sitting players to protect them from injury. Stop crying, move on.
Yes, a baseball team may rest its starting catcher in a day game that follows a night game or have a starting pitcher skip a turn to rest his arm. NBA teams will sometimes sit out a player or two from a game if it seems like those guys are wearing down. But when have you ever seen a team rest ALL of their starters in the same game? There's a difference.
Thanks, but that comes back to my question (which was an honest one): What rule in this meet was broken? The rule you linked refers to NCAA championship competition, and I was already aware of that one.
Though I disagree with the practice, for years now some NCAA teams have "tempoed" certain meets, and plenty of coaches think that's perfectly acceptable...with no sanctions or fines or other repercussions, as near as I know. How are those "tempo races" different in kind from what Princeton did?
Just looked up the results of the meet, and Princeton's starting five finished in the last 5 spots. They also all ran 23:32 (6:18 pace), which isn't tempo pace or the kind of pace you'd have for a workout. Even for Mid-Distance guys that's slower than tempo
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