We need to talk about how suspicious this guys career was. He performed well in no name small time meets and then when the important stuff came up he was no where to be found.
He was there running like 13s 100m a long way from home 🤣 The guy basically had 6 months when everything clicked and he was on a different level. Maybe another 3 years where he was very good but a notch down.
More likely he just was not able to manage his peaks well.
Its a skill. He wasn't great at it.
He still was a great runner. I haven't seen anyone on here claim to be better.
Also, I’m not sure I follow the logic of how performing well at small meets vs championships making him suspect. Do you think all of the meets he performed well at didn’t have drug testing?
Isn’t that what I just said? Small meets are for making some money for the organizers. Tiny meets in some no name city may not even want to waste money on drug testing. A world championship meet doesn’t have favorites. It’s odd how he ran a monster time of 1:43 in 2007, a 3:30 in 2007, a 3:46 in 2007, and then in the 2007 world championship with ten times more money on the line he ran 3:35 , and then at another world athletics event in 2007 he ran 3:38. It’s not hard to connect the dots. Thanks for making me repeat myself.
with your logic hicham would have run 3.23 today 🤦🏻
No, hicham was a walking pharmacy. That was the height of EPO. Don’t conflate the two.
So Jakob is clean as a whistle and if he was given El G. Resources he would be running 3:20. Or, he’s also on gear on a strict regimen running 3:28. I’m going to have to go with Occams Razor on this one and avoid delusions and cherry picking
American track and field delusions and hypocrisy explained. Here’s how it goes : 1) 90s was full of cheaters and blatant EPO usage. 2) Americans own runners start running out of this world times that El G, Komen, Lagat would have called a great day (3:46 mile, 1:43 800) 3) American runners can’t replicate performances on WC stage and can’t even place top 5 the same exact year 4) “that’s just our guys having a bad day , we’re still clean and making sure to catch all the cheaters.” We’re doing great things for the sport!
Webbs 3:46 will prob be broken either this summer or next….
but that 3:53 has another 10-15 years shelf life.
Doesn’t Kessler’s HSR (which was faster than the NCAA record at the time) convert to about 3:51.5ish? Clearly the superior mark to Webb’s. No reason someone like that couldn’t break it — Kessler could have.
Someone like that could break it, but none of the current crop are like that. Hobbs is a generational talent and I don’t think any of the current top high schoolers are on that level
So Jakob is clean as a whistle and if he was given El G. Resources he would be running 3:20. Or, he’s also on gear on a strict regimen running 3:28. I’m going to have to go with Occams Razor on this one and avoid delusions and cherry picking
It is impossible to determine what anyone is "on." The only thing we can look at is the amount of progress runners have made since the release of supershoes. Looking at top 100 averages, there was barely (if any) progress in times in the 10 years previous to the release of supershoes. This goes for US HS, US, and World times for men and women. When supershoes were release, performances immediately improved substantially.
Based off of top 100 performances comparing average from previous 10 years prior to supershoes and average of the last 3 years this is probably what they are worth for a world-class miler: For someone running under ~3:48 they are probably worth only 1-2 seconds and more likely the latter. Meaning, that they were probably more of a help when ingebritsen was running slower. He has already used them. He is no longer getting any help from effect of supershoes when compared to himself. If JI is a 3:49 runner w/o the shoes, more than likely, he is a 3:48-3:47ish runner with them (which is still big). Problem is, he's been running in them for a while so it's hard to look at his times without looking at the shoes.
For a 4:00 runner they are worth more (according to recent progression). This is why we've been seeing more progress in 13:30 runners and less in runners around 12:50. For whatever reason, they are more effective for those runners on the elite level and less on the world-class level. So, for most 4:00 runners, they are worth 3-4 seconds. Yes, training has improved in the last 20 years. When compared to the 90s, US runners are definitely running faster. When compared to 2018 shoes, and shoes alone, are the reason for the huge improvement.
On the day JI ran 3:46, he would have likely ran over 3:48 w/o the shoes. We can talk about tracks and nutrition and pole vault poles all we want, but the biggest development in mechanical performance enhancing that distance running has seen is supershoes.
Wonder what Jim Ryun would have run in 2023 if he was a high schooler now with cheater shoes, track surface, training, human pacer, pacing lights. Why do they allow pacer and pacing lights? Cheating! Ryun ran on crap dirt track in what, flat 1960s Addidas with zero padding in them.
Doesn’t Kessler’s HSR (which was faster than the NCAA record at the time) convert to about 3:51.5ish? Clearly the superior mark to Webb’s. No reason someone like that couldn’t break it — Kessler could have.
Could. Should. Woulda.
Hypothetically, yes. But hypothetically the Miami Heat shouldn't be in the NBA playoffs.
the heat were the 7 seed going into the play-in, so in years before the play-in tournament, they'd be in the playoffs. don't really know what you're talking about lol, maybe stick to track.
When u fall short of it find u a pair of zoom Kennedys and then compare that to your bouncy clown shoes and then put some stank on webbs name of how much better he was.
We need to talk about how suspicious this guys career was. He performed well in no name small time meets and then when the important stuff came up he was no where to be found.
I wouldn't call winning numerous US Championships including the US trials MIA.
No. They are worth more for a 4:00 runner than they are a 3:43 runner. I would say for most ~4:00 runners they are worth 3-4 seconds. A 4:04 runner w/o super shoes would, most likely, break 4:00, on the same day, without changing a thing other than switching to super shoes.
dragonflys/avanti dont even have a carbon plate or shank...
The dragonflys have a pebax plate and foam and pretty sure avanti uses both carbon plate and pebax. They return energy which reduces leg fatigue which reduces work load on cardiovascular system which allows an athlete to run faster for a longer duration. For a 4:00 miler they are worth 3-4 seconds. A 3:59 runner would most likely run around 4:03 just by switching to shoes from 5 years ago. Great, but not sub 4. There is a reason 100% of all top runners from HS to world-class are wearing supershoes.
It would be interesting to get same runners together again in a couple weeks and have them run in pre supershoes and watch all the time drop.
This is silly. Either the spikes work or they don’t.
Hicham is either a 3:22 runner in super shoes or he’s not. None of this personalized dress results. You are salty that your times become more average everyday.
The dragonflys have a pebax plate and foam and pretty sure avanti uses both carbon plate and pebax. They return energy which reduces leg fatigue which reduces work load on cardiovascular system which allows an athlete to run faster for a longer duration. For a 4:00 miler they are worth 3-4 seconds. A 3:59 runner would most likely run around 4:03 just by switching to shoes from 5 years ago. Great, but not sub 4. There is a reason 100% of all top runners from HS to world-class are wearing supershoes.
It would be interesting to get same runners together again in a couple weeks and have them run in pre supershoes and watch all the time drop.
This is silly. Either the spikes work or they don’t.
Hicham is either a 3:22 runner in super shoes or he’s not. None of this personalized dress results. You are salty that your times become more average everyday.
They work - otherwise no one would shell out the money to wear them.
with your logic hicham would have run 3.23 today 🤦🏻
No. They are worth more for a 4:00 runner than they are a 3:43 runner. I would say for most ~4:00 runners they are worth 3-4 seconds. A 4:04 runner w/o super shoes would, most likely, break 4:00, on the same day, without changing a thing other than switching to super shoes. For someone under 3:50 (especially 3:46 area) they are probably only worth 1-2 seconds. El G with the shoes on the day he ran 3:43.13 would probably run low 3:42 area. Maybe very high 3:41. These improvements come from comparing top 100 performances for HS, US, and World average time improvements over the past 10 years pre and post super shoes.
If the shoes aren't worth it - why pay for them? Why buy into a gimic that doesn't work? Truth is, they work. And they work enough that the all top HS runners are now wearing them. Companies could price those things out at $500 and runners would buy them. I'd buy them to get under 4:00. But it doesn't change the fact that a 4:00 isn't worth what it used to be.
Seems like made up nonsense to weasel around the fact that if there was really a 1 second per lap difference (and the physics isn't much different between a 4:00 mile and a 3:43), all the best runners, in a shocking coincidence, got slower when these game-changing spikes were introduced.
Probably they're worth something, but 1 second per lap is too much.
Frankly, a record attempt in a high school only race was very unlikely to succeed. Breaking Webb's 3:53 will take a pro field with rabbits going out at a 3:52 or better pace.
Also, I’m not sure I follow the logic of how performing well at small meets vs championships making him suspect. Do you think all of the meets he performed well at didn’t have drug testing?
Isn’t that what I just said? Small meets are for making some money for the organizers. Tiny meets in some no name city may not even want to waste money on drug testing. A world championship meet doesn’t have favorites. It’s odd how he ran a monster time of 1:43 in 2007, a 3:30 in 2007, a 3:46 in 2007, and then in the 2007 world championship with ten times more money on the line he ran 3:35 , and then at another world athletics event in 2007 he ran 3:38. It’s not hard to connect the dots. Thanks for making me repeat myself.
So your theory is that he purposely sandbagged the big meets that mattered, but juiced up for the small meets that nobody gave a sh!t about?
800m 1:43! In no name meet. 1500m 3:30 small meet. Mile 3:46! No name meet. International competition: 3:35 the same exact year (2007) , world athletics final 2007 3:38. 🚩 🚩 🚩 suspicious is an understatement.
~4 weeks in the July/summer of 2007 .. then nothing at all … suspicious to me.
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