Briguy, how much time do you think doping is worth in the marathon? I don't have a good answer for that, but obviously if Kipchoge is doping, it's not taking him from being a 2:09 guy to a 2:01 guy. At a certain point, if someone is SO much better than everyone else in their event, it makes an argument for them being clean because they don't need to dope to beat everyone. I'm not suggesting this is the case, but to what degree doping can impact performance matters for this argument.
When you trek off into the land of rampant speculation about who is doping, therein lies madness.
Just enjoy the sport. I don't think hardly anyone wants drugs in sport, but its a fact of life and I am not going to discount every incredible performance due to doping concerns. Watching Jan Ulrich/Armstrong/Pantani duel was fun even though if we thought about it for more than a second or two we knew they were all juiced. Same goes for many endurance sports matchups. I like watching the races. A lot of the outliers are likely doping, some aren't. I'm not going to guess around -- when someone on top like Asbel Kiprop or Manganoi gets popped, cool, they got popped. I'm moving on.
It's a little tougher when someone like Gatlin comes back and is still at or near the top, but eventually I gave up caring about that one too and just enjoyed his duels with Bolt.
Theres no evidence that he’s doping. Appreciate the greatness, absorb the moment.
IFby some chance it turns out he is doping, sure, we can reevaluate. But I want to believe in the purity, the passion, and the humility. I will do so for as long as he continues in the clear. Greatness is special, and it’s sad to see people disbelieve in anger.
No offense to Frerichs but she’d finish behind about 15 US athletes in the 3k maybe more.* And she’s run 8:57. We don’t think 8:20 capable runners should be way faster?
You're just doing outdoors for some reason. Frerichs' 5,000 PB is actually marginally better with a 14:48 at BU. I'm not saying she's bad at the 3,000, but I stand by the list I put out there. 14:48 is a nice time, but on the world scene it means you are some 150-200m off the win when the best line up (even in a somewhat tactical race).
You claim that most people are naive and sheep, and yet instead of thinking for yourself and drawing conclusions based on observation, you’re just choosing to believe he dopes because of what some other pro athlete says? Very strange and hypocritical.
I think Kipchoge is doping based on his performances, not some hearsay. Still think he’s an absolutely incredible athlete and an inspiration; he has gotten so many non-runners to pay attention to the sport, even for a brief period of time, and some of them probably got inspired to start running themselves because of him. That is a wonderful thing
Theres no evidence that he’s doping. Appreciate the greatness, absorb the moment.
IFby some chance it turns out he is doping, sure, we can reevaluate. But I want to believe in the purity, the passion, and the humility. I will do so for as long as he continues in the clear. Greatness is special, and it’s sad to see people disbelieve in anger.
Would you say the same thing about a bodybuilder who wins Mr. Olympia—that there’s “no evidence” they’re taking steroids because they’ve never tested positive and categorically deny ever having taken drugs? That “no evidence” argument is quite flimsy as it requires belief in an extremely flawed anti doping system
This thread is superhot on the message board rite now! I Wonder what kipchoge is thinking. I bet he or his entourage has read it. Im pretty sure he doped. There was a big time gap between his track career n transition to the Marathon. He most likely doped to max there. And now he is just micro dosing to keep up the levels.
I'd be more impressed if she called out Frerichs, to me that one is even more obvious. 20 second SBs every year at WCs or the Olympics. Can't hang with Emma at any US Champs or Trials meet, but on the international stage buries her every time. It's just so obvious.
Lance Armstrong had numerous teammates, competitors, former greats of the sport and support staff insisting he was doping (many with direct knowledge/witnessing of it). Slightly different situation.
I genuinely believe that Ryan Hall was one of the last clean elites. I have zero evidence to back this up, but something about his early departure from the sport indicates that there were steps he knew he would have to take if he was going to break through and win a major marathon. Instead of compromising his personal ethics, he chose to walk away.
The way that Kipchoge never has an off day reeks of doping. Always swinging for the fences and never missing? Sounds a lot like another Nike-backed cyclist from the late 90s/early 00s except Kipchoge is a much more personable athlete.
I genuinely believe that Ryan Hall was one of the last clean elites. I have zero evidence to back this up, but something about his early departure from the sport indicates that there were steps he knew he would have to take if he was going to break through and win a major marathon. Instead of compromising his personal ethics, he chose to walk away.
The way that Kipchoge never has an off day reeks of doping. Always swinging for the fences and never missing? Sounds a lot like another Nike-backed cyclist from the late 90s/early 00s except Kipchoge is a much more personable athlete.
He walked away because his body was crumbling, he had low testosterone (not a dig -- he admitted that was a reason), couldn't seem to match his prior performances, and bounced around from a number of coaches before coaching himself (famously stating hew as coached by god) and then hung them up when he could barely finish a race yet alone compete in one. Not because he was right on the edge and needed drugs to compete.
Lance Armstrong had numerous teammates, competitors, former greats of the sport and support staff insisting he was doping (many with direct knowledge/witnessing of it). Slightly different situation.
True. But on the other hand, Kipchoge has a couple of doped and banned teammates too.
Briguy, how much time do you think doping is worth in the marathon? I don't have a good answer for that, but obviously if Kipchoge is doping, it's not taking him from being a 2:09 guy to a 2:01 guy.
If I remember well, Salazar said 2 minutes and Schumacher 4%.
I genuinely believe that Ryan Hall was one of the last clean elites. I have zero evidence to back this up, but something about his early departure from the sport indicates that there were steps he knew he would have to take if he was going to break through and win a major marathon. Instead of compromising his personal ethics, he chose to walk away.
The way that Kipchoge never has an off day reeks of doping. Always swinging for the fences and never missing? Sounds a lot like another Nike-backed cyclist from the late 90s/early 00s except Kipchoge is a much more personable athlete.
There’s no way Kipchoge could train at a super elite level without taking a day off given his age. No way!!!
He's probably doping not based on anything that Emma Coburn says but that most other top Kenyans are doping.
What's doping? Kipchoge has been constantly tested and always passed. Doping has to be defined by the tests. Otherwise, in a world full of "supplements", caffeine and pharmaceuticals and various TUEs, it's what anyone claims or concocts and all records become meaningless.
Doping is taking banned substances. Most dopers aren't caught. Only 1-2% of tests are positive and yet expert estimates are that the numbers doping will be much higher. Drugs can be masked, or taken out of competition when there may be less testing. According to antidoping experts, doping is more sophisticated than antidoping.
He was world champion in the 5,000m at age 18 in 12:52, beating two goats in that race El Gerrouj and Bekele. He is a freak to be able to do that. And apparently he's even better at the marathon. It's not like he came out of nowhere to be best in the world, he was best in the world at one point as a teenager and has a lifetime of top level training under him which allows him to run great marathons with 'modest' marathon volume around 110-120 mile weeks to keep from getting injured and be incredibly consistent.
…and don’t forget the fact that he graduated HS at age 14 according to his wiki (same HS than Lagat).
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