There is no need to dwell on semantics and deflect from the problem of rampant PED’s use in Kenya.
There should be all out support for the AIU’s efforts. It is through their efforts and others that a cleaner believable sport can emerge AND the exploitation of East African female athletes (by males) can be snuffed out.
It is that… rampant PED’s use in Kenya (east Africa really) that needs to be the focus. It is the pipeline of PED’s, the people involved, the exploitation, the mindset - that needs to be discussed and rooted out. Not some back and forth quasi intellectual debate over words (which takes two and you know who you are) to be going head to head over at nausea on this website.
There is no need to dwell on semantics and deflect from the problem of rampant PED’s use in Kenya.
There should be all out support for the AIU’s efforts. It is through their efforts and others that a cleaner believable sport can emerge AND the exploitation of East African female athletes (by males) can be snuffed out.
It is that… rampant PED’s use in Kenya (east Africa really) that needs to be the focus. It is the pipeline of PED’s, the people involved, the exploitation, the mindset - that needs to be discussed and rooted out. Not some back and forth quasi intellectual debate over words (which takes two and you know who you are) to be going head to head over at nausea on this website.
Let's support the AIU, sure.
But if the AIU didn't say "systematic", then who are we supporting, exactly?
The "problem of rampant PED's" may be an important topic, but it is not the topic of the article. The article is about a seeming pattern of cover-ups involving a "medically saavy operation" producing fake letters from fake doctors.
There is no need to dwell on semantics and deflect from the problem of rampant PED’s use in Kenya.
There should be all out support for the AIU’s efforts. It is through their efforts and others that a cleaner believable sport can emerge AND the exploitation of East African female athletes (by males) can be snuffed out.
It is that… rampant PED’s use in Kenya (east Africa really) that needs to be the focus. It is the pipeline of PED’s, the people involved, the exploitation, the mindset - that needs to be discussed and rooted out. Not some back and forth quasi intellectual debate over words (which takes two and you know who you are) to be going head to head over at nausea on this website.
You will never get that from the deniers here. Irrelevant and even erroneous semantic distinctions are all they have.
Yes, let's. This is what the AIU figured out last year:
Kenyan doping is not centralised; however, it is becoming increasingly more sophisticated. Because of the financial incentives to dope, there is a free market demand for doping products and methods and many persons are willing to supply the athletes. These transactions range from the very basic supply of products to more sophisticated networks of conspirators coming together to use methodologies to avoid detection.
Evidently there are now new examples of conspirators.
There is no need to dwell on semantics and deflect from the problem of rampant PED’s use in Kenya.
There should be all out support for the AIU’s efforts. It is through their efforts and others that a cleaner believable sport can emerge AND the exploitation of East African female athletes (by males) can be snuffed out.
It is that… rampant PED’s use in Kenya (east Africa really) that needs to be the focus. It is the pipeline of PED’s, the people involved, the exploitation, the mindset - that needs to be discussed and rooted out. Not some back and forth quasi intellectual debate over words (which takes two and you know who you are) to be going head to head over at nausea on this website.
Let's support the AIU, sure.
But if the AIU didn't say "systematic", then who are we supporting, exactly?
The "problem of rampant PED's" may be an important topic, but it is not the topic of the article. The article is about a seeming pattern of cover-ups involving a "medically saavy operation" producing fake letters from fake doctors.
The "context of the article" is rampant Kenyan doping. You haven't heard about that.
Thank God you don't have powers to bar him from taking part in London marathon 2023.
General condemnation is a very bad syndrome. Generalising every Kenyan who works hard to excel in athletics is a worst disease and bile that needs generalists to heal from.
Kevin Kiptum will compete and probably post very good results and even win. What will you do? Hang yourself or hug a porcupine 🤷🤷
There is no need to dwell on semantics and deflect from the problem of rampant PED’s use in Kenya.
There should be all out support for the AIU’s efforts. It is through their efforts and others that a cleaner believable sport can emerge AND the exploitation of East African female athletes (by males) can be snuffed out.
It is that… rampant PED’s use in Kenya (east Africa really) that needs to be the focus. It is the pipeline of PED’s, the people involved, the exploitation, the mindset - that needs to be discussed and rooted out. Not some back and forth quasi intellectual debate over words (which takes two and you know who you are) to be going head to head over at nausea on this website.
Let's support the AIU, sure.
But if the AIU didn't say "systematic", then who are we supporting, exactly?
The "problem of rampant PED's" may be an important topic, but it is not the topic of the article. The article is about a seeming pattern of cover-ups involving a "medically saavy operation" producing fake letters from fake doctors.
Okay you just sucked me into your vortex… “may be an important topic”. It is the topic. The rest is by product.
We support those that are trying to stop the exploitation. We don’t deny, we don’t deflect.
But if the AIU didn't say "systematic", then who are we supporting, exactly?
The "problem of rampant PED's" may be an important topic, but it is not the topic of the article. The article is about a seeming pattern of cover-ups involving a "medically saavy operation" producing fake letters from fake doctors.
Okay you just sucked me into your vortex… “may be an important topic”. It is the topic. The rest is by product.
We support those that are trying to stop the exploitation. We don’t deny, we don’t deflect.
Call this thread a by-product then: "AIU suspects criminal systematic doping cover-up operation in Kenya".
But if the AIU didn't say "systematic", then who are we supporting, exactly?
The "problem of rampant PED's" may be an important topic, but it is not the topic of the article. The article is about a seeming pattern of cover-ups involving a "medically saavy operation" producing fake letters from fake doctors.
this is what the AIU said: "It is clear doping in Kenya is increasingly well organised and these cases underline the reality that medically-experienced personnel are involved,"
it's not just cover-ups, it's doping AND coverups. you can't have coverups without doping to begin with. Kenyan athletes are far dirtier than russian athletes ever were. why are you so supportive of the doped up kenyans?
But if the AIU didn't say "systematic", then who are we supporting, exactly?
The "problem of rampant PED's" may be an important topic, but it is not the topic of the article. The article is about a seeming pattern of cover-ups involving a "medically saavy operation" producing fake letters from fake doctors.
this is what the AIU said: "It is clear doping in Kenya is increasingly well organised and these cases underline the reality that medically-experienced personnel are involved,"
it's not just cover-ups, it's doping AND coverups. you can't have coverups without doping to begin with. Kenyan athletes are far dirtier than russian athletes ever were. why are you so supportive of the doped up kenyans?
Sure, the AIU chair David Howman said that. Note, David Howman does not say how well organized it is today, but just increasingly so.
When you say "doping AND coverups", do you understand the union or the intersection of these things? I understood the article to be about the intersection -- the "at least two" cases of submitting fake documents to explain the presence being used to suggest that Kenyan doping is becoming "increasingly well organized", because the forgeries look legitimate, and not yet again about the general claim of "widespread doping".
But why would you think I'm supporting "doped up kenyans". If anything, I'm supporting accuracy in reporting by pointing out the word substitution in a headline designed to catch readers' attention. On the topic itself, I'm in favor of longer bans for athletes for submitting fake documents. My original question was only if the AIU said "systematic", which apparently they did not. A simple "no" would have sufficed.
Without continuous accuracy, some may lose an accurate perspective and start to believe all of the headlines and say things like "Kenyan athletes are far dirtier than russian athletes ever were". For perspective, in 2019, the latest data available from WADA, and before the pandemic, in athletics Russia (35) still had more ADRVs than Kenya (29), and Russia is still banned from competition. As a nation, across all WADA sports, Russia (#1), India (#3), and Italy (#2) were at least 5x worse than Kenya (#17). In cycling, Italy (47), with a similar sized population, was more than 1.5x worse than Kenya (30). With 47 busts in 2019, do you recall the last time Italy was highlighted in any headline about cycling and doping?
Excellent points, rekrunner. To summarize from your 2019 data, Kenyan athletes were only the second worst dopers in the world, even better than the Russians. In distance running, the Russian dopers fell behind the Kenyan dopers.
Accuracy is important! Otherwise people might blame Kenyans for being terrible dopers, while the Russians are actually worse, and think that doping in Kenya is systematic.
Excellent points, rekrunner. To summarize from your 2019 data, Kenyan athletes were only the second worst dopers in the world, even better than the Russians. In distance running, the Russian dopers fell behind the Kenyan dopers.
Accuracy is important! Otherwise people might blame Kenyans for being terrible dopers, while the Russians are actually worse, and think that doping in Kenya is systematic.
Thank you -- accuracy and perspective is paramount. Otherwise we are solving problems that don't really exist, or with the wrong priorities.
But not sure what "In distance running, the Russian dopers fell behind the Kenyan dopers", as WADA's 2019 data still says Russia was worse in 2019.
But given that the real data already clearly suggests a serious problem that needs to be addressed, it boggles my mind how many people feel the need that this data needs to be padded and inflated and distorted and reworded, as if only then will it finally be perceived as a problem, and then get defensive when such clear exaggerations are pointed out.
Kenyan’s do not dope. Kenya does not have super labs and bio research funds like the west has. It is the west that dopes their athletes with these programs. Kenyan’s are genetically blessed and live at altitude making the perfect combination for running.
But not sure what "In distance running, the Russian dopers fell behind the Kenyan dopers", as WADA's 2019 data still says Russia was worse in 2019.
I noticed a distinct difference between athletes "in distance running" and the total number of athletes. Or is there no difference?
Oh I see -- you are talking about some figure not published in WADA reports. When talking about Russian long distance runners, this raises the question of whether they are doping less, or there are just fewer of them to begin with.
But sure -- when you count different things, there will be differences.
The point is, if accurate damning figures exist, why this constant need to resort to creating fictitious, inflated, or padded figures and unsupportable claims?
There is no need to dwell on semantics and deflect from the problem of rampant PED’s use in Kenya.
There should be all out support for the AIU’s efforts. It is through their efforts and others that a cleaner believable sport can emerge AND the exploitation of East African female athletes (by males) can be snuffed out.
It is that… rampant PED’s use in Kenya (east Africa really) that needs to be the focus. It is the pipeline of PED’s, the people involved, the exploitation, the mindset - that needs to be discussed and rooted out. Not some back and forth quasi intellectual debate over words (which takes two and you know who you are) to be going head to head over at nausea on this website.
You will never get that from the deniers here. Irrelevant and even erroneous semantic distinctions are all they have.
Meaningless trolling again.
When you are proved wrong you say “ it is semantics” and then you runaway.
Kenyan’s do not dope. Kenya does not have super labs and bio research funds like the west has. It is the west that dopes their athletes with these programs. Kenyan’s are genetically blessed and live at altitude making the perfect combination for running.
It certainly doesn't have the anti-doping funding either, even if you include all the 'tea money'. Despite that, Kenyans still get popped at 20x the rate of Western distance runners combined, mainly when competing abroad. That needs explaining.
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