rojo wrote:
I was reading Kyle Merber's newsletter today and read the following:
Maybe this is a hot take – the value of training partners greatly outweighs the benefit of good coaching. Athletes have infinite access to information and training plans, but bodies that can take a rep to block the wind are a finite resource.
I immediately thought to myself. "No, maybe he never had good coaching."
I then called up LetsRun coaching guru John Kellogg looking for affirmation (I always say most people look for affirmation not information). I was surprised that John agreed with Kyle that good training partners can be very benefitial. I was surprised as my brother went from 30:13 in college with training partners to 28:06 as a pro, training alone.
"Fast training partners are often very helpful," said Kellogg as sometimes you can learn to just hang on to them. But i pushed back a little and he admitted sometimes it's detrimental as you go too hard in practice.
John thought think Kyle and I have different takes as nowadays most of the coaches are pretty decent, but the reason why I had such a visceral "NO" to it was when I went to HS and college many of the coaches were not good at all. A buddy of mine was a grad assistant at an ACC school in the late 1990s and they didn't do tempo runs at all. Heck, even when I started at Cornell, if you got a guy down to 14:15/29:30 and had them peak right, you'd pretty much dominate the Ivy League. That was true for like 2003-2007 or 8. When I left we had guys running like 29:15 and not even scoring.
I then read another quote to John Kellogg from Kyle's piece;
Ultimately success isn’t generally about doing threshold 1k’s vs. tempo runs. It comes from belief, fostered in an environment where one can flourish.The first sentence is fine. It doesn't matter too much if you do a 5 mile tempo or 10 x 1k slightly faster with short rest. But the second sentence is absolute garbage.
John Kellogg agreed and responded. "If you want to boil a pot of water, you don't put it on a block of ice and tell it to believe it can start boiling. You just put it on a fire. Running is a physical sport. Confidence comes from fitness. Fitness never comes from confidence...."
It's always blown my mind that so many great runners think they are great because of their mindset. Stop flattering yourself. You are more talented. And the obvious proof of this over the years has been the fluctuating results of the DSD athletes. Semenya goes from world beater to terrible to world beater. Her mindset didn't change.
I'm really stunned that Kyle would think that. This is a guy who ran 3:34 at Swarthmore but then somehow managed not to make NCAAs a week or two later. Does he really think his belief totally changed in two weeks? (Admittedly, someone could turn that on me and say "Well did his fitness really change in two weeks. In some ways).
Thanks for sharing this piece! I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts.
I had two coaches after high school, Willy Wood, who you should know pretty well, and Frank Gagliano - whose name should never be slandered unless you are hoping to summon the wrath of a hundred older Italian men in the greater New York area.
You make a few important points; mainly that the ubiquity of good coaching today is significant in comparison to twenty years ago. We have the Internet to thank for that! But my opinion is in regard to the professional level, where athletes are no longer balls of clay who must be molded.
Whether it's in Flagstaff for training camp or between races, a huge percentage of professionals self-regulate their training, and with some direction from their coach will make necessary adjustments to overlap with others so the workouts aren't being done solo. I think we are on the same page about this as we agree the difference between doing threshold 1k's and tempo miles on any given day is nothing.
I agree with the poster that mentioned the importance of those conversations before and after workouts - that's culture. If you have ever warmed up with someone who was unhappy to be there then you know the drain their negativity can have on the rest of the group. A great coach can find the right people, and cultivate an environment of positivity.
Ultimately, assuming all professional coaches are of relatively similar competence, it is about convincing the athletes to buy in and believe in the program. Right now, Ritz could give the OAC the worst workouts he could think of and you wouldn't know it from the results. He has fully won the group over and every single one of them believes that he's a genius. Maybe he is! But what I have been most impressed is how selective they have been about finding the right people to join and how Ritz would travel anywhere or do anything to make his athlete's feel supported.
Oh, and I laughed at this:
"It's always blown my mind that so many great runners think they are great because of their mindset. Stop flattering yourself. You are more talented."
The exact same thing could be said for coaches.
"It's always blown my mind that so many great coaches think they are great because of their workouts. Stop flattering yourself. Your athletes are more talented."
At the highest level, the different degrees of talent become razor-thin, and being in the right head space matters. It is obviously some combination of both if you're going to be a consistent winner.
Good discussion! By the way, you should try the OLIPOP Cola as a substitute if you're trying to cut back on the soad. As John knows, I am a big fan of the pod.
And while this definitely shouldn't turn into a discussion of my career: I only ran 3:35 at Swarthmore ;)