Symmonds built himself into a legend. Brazier has had some legendary performances, but needs more time to become a legend, and he needs to be healthy more often.
Nick is a legend but Brazier isn't? LOL that's an insane thing to say.
I think this has to do with our definition of "legend." Most of us understand that legend is used to describe a narrative or a story. Nick has more of that stuff. He was "part of our track & field lives" for a lot longer and crossed over into other parts of our culture more often (the logo controversy, dating Paris Hilton!).
It is fair to say Brazier was the better runner (faster PR, higher ceiling, etc) but that isn't what legends are made of. Dave Wottle is slower than both but is more "legendary" because of the story he told us about dorky underdogs in floppy hats.
What is the Legend of Brazier? He was great but then got injured --- that is not a legend-worthy story.
Symmonds has the satisfaction of knowing he got 99.99% out of his body and held his own in the greatest race in history in the hardest track event....
Brazier, who never talked to any of my ex girlfriends, has to wake up every day with the knowledge that he likely has the potential to be the 800m GOAT, but is still not in Seb Coe territory, never mind Rudisha territory.
Yeah, this is how I think of it too.
If the question is "who had a better career?" or "who was a better runner?," it's a close call but I'd pick Brazier with the WC gold, AR, and faster PR. His career was short, but there's a huge chasm between gold and silver. I'm not saying that second place is first loser, but...
But the actual title of the thread asked whose career YOU would rather have. And in answer to that question, I'd go with Symmonds. If Brazier's career ends today (and of course I hope it doesn't), he's going to be tormented every day for the rest of his life wondering what might have been. (Or maybe he won't, but I would if I had his career.)
Symmonds, in contrast, is one of the best examples I can come up with of a guy who really got everything out of himself and exceeded his own and other people's expectations over the course of a long career. If he seems a little smug in those YouTube videos, it's because he goes to bed every night thinking "I completely rocked my running career, and thus will be a legend in my own mind for the rest of my life." That's a pretty nice feeling to have.
In terms of purely objective measures - Brazier. That's like asking a runner "would you rather have gold medal and a faster PR or a silver medal and a slower PR."
However, I think Symmond's career will end up as the more enjoyable and satisfying one. Symmonds was a D3 guy who came out of nowhere and ended up as one of the most dominant US 800 runners ever over a very long period of time. Brazier's career on the other hand, has been marred by injuries and disappointing performances, highlighted by 1 really great year. Unless Brazier manages to turn things around, he's probably going to be one of the great "what-if" stories, much like Webb.
I would take Symmonds. Brazier got to be the best for a moment but I would imagine Nick's career path was life-affirming and fun in a way I don't think Brazier's could be (not his fault). Brazier ran 1:45 December of his freshman year of college... I mean come on he was oozing with talent and quickly rose to the top and won worlds. Symmonds was a D3 guy who pushed to become a pro through NYNJ and then OTC. He gradually progressed, stayed healthy for a long time, ran a ton of USA championships and global championships. Finally in 2013 he snagged a global silver in a perfectly executed race.
Symmonds lived the dream so many of us have and got to be a truly elite professional for about a decade, competing at a global level against the greatest 800 talent of all time and doing it with an odd sit and kick style. I can't imagine how cool that journey must have been and respect Nick for publishing his training including hung over days and being super open along the way. His YouTube channel is rough haha but I respect him for carrying his fame over into a new career to support his family.
It seems like everyone is looking at medals and PR. And if you look at only those two variables then of course it is Brazier. But I’m willing to bet Brazier would trade that WC gold to have the title Olympian next to his name.
Brazier: WC gold, 1:42.34 PB. Zero Olympic teams. Symmonds: WC silver, 1:42.95 PB. Two Olympic teams.
It’s an easy decision for people who care about Olympic teams.
Leo Manzano has made more Olympic teams than Jakob Ingebrigtsen so I suppose you’d take his career over the Norwegian’s?
Making Olympic teams is only important insofar that it’s a prerequisite for winning medals. If you take two athletes, the only difference between them being one has more Olympic medals and the other has more Olympic appearances, you will choose the career of the former every single time.
Leo and Jakob are both Olympians. That’s an apple to apple comparison. Comparing Symmonds and Brazier is apples and oranges. A better question is would you rather have Symmonds career or Clayton Murphy’s.
It seems like everyone is looking at medals and PR. And if you look at only those two variables then of course it is Brazier. But I’m willing to bet Brazier would trade that WC gold to have the title Olympian next to his name.
This is pure delusion. Anyone who qualifies for the Olympics is an Olympian, including those who don’t race, get bounced in the heats, etc. The World Champion is the best athlete in the world on the day. That is worth far, far more than just making it to the Olympics.
In terms of purely objective measures - Brazier. That's like asking a runner "would you rather have gold medal and a faster PR or a silver medal and a slower PR."
However, I think Symmond's career will end up as the more enjoyable and satisfying one. Symmonds was a D3 guy who came out of nowhere and ended up as one of the most dominant US 800 runners ever over a very long period of time. Brazier's career on the other hand, has been marred by injuries and disappointing performances, highlighted by 1 really great year. Unless Brazier manages to turn things around, he's probably going to be one of the great "what-if" stories, much like Webb.
This is a good post. Better runner with high heights? Brazier. Longer, more satisfying career, Symmonds. Unless we are defining "career" as "two good years" then it is weird to use that word with Brazier...
What Brazier had might be preferable to many people but it isn't crazy to say you'd rather live that life for a decade like Nick did (and his 1:42.9 PR is not slow, so it isn't crazy to pick him either.
p.s. The Brazier-Webb comparison is imperfect but does get at the heart of why we hate the "what if" scenarios so much. Brazier could have had so much more... [and yes, I am still hoping he makes a comeback.]
Leo and Jakob are both Olympians. That’s an apple to apple comparison. Comparing Symmonds and Brazier is apples and oranges. A better question is would you rather have Symmonds career or Clayton Murphy’s.
Leo has twice as many Olympic appearances. I’d think that would be significant to someone like you who cares so much about making Olympic teams. You’re arguing in favor of Symmonds on the basis that he qualified for the Olympics twice and Brazier never did, even though Brazier is faster and has WC gold to Symmonds’ silver. It’s not an honest argument.
Then you’re really not gonna like this. I’d rather have Charles Jock’s career than Braziers. Olympian trumps all other accolades imo. Ask the average person on the street, would you rather be a world champion or an Olympian? I bet 99% of them say Olympian.
Idk how this is even a question lmao. It’s Brazier all day and it’s not even close. He has that WC gold and American record. Not to mention he has one of the most legendary NCAA performances all time when he ran 1:43.55 as a true freshman to win. Simply put, Symonds had a great and long career, but none of the true great 800 runners ever feared him. When Brazier is healthy and in form, every single middle distance runner in the world is terrified of him due to his talent. It sucks that his olympic trials failures and recent injuries have clouded your memories of how truly great and talented brazier is. Hopefully he will get it together and be back!
It seems like everyone is looking at medals and PR. And if you look at only those two variables then of course it is Brazier. But I’m willing to bet Brazier would trade that WC gold to have the title Olympian next to his name.
Yes and if you're an 800 meter runner you want to be able to actually BE an 800 meter racer.
What's he been doing since that WC Gold?
Symmonds had a real career- racing, winning nationals, touring Europe. Read his book- he's had a career that can be a book. As of now, Brazier is a paragraph.
And believe me, I'm cheering for Brazier, I want him to have many fulfilling years. But time is running out.
It feels like if I experienced Symmonds career I’d be way more satisfied than Brazier’s. Thinking about Brazier’s career makes me almost sad at the prospect of what could’ve been. With Nick it is like he got the very most out of his abilities. On a personality note, Nick also seems to have enjoyed the ride a lot more than the average world class runner at that level.
It seems like everyone is looking at medals and PR. And if you look at only those two variables then of course it is Brazier. But I’m willing to bet Brazier would trade that WC gold to have the title Olympian next to his name.
People forget Brazier really lost a year in his prime because of COVID-19 in 2020. He most likely would have won Olympic gold had they not been canceled that year. His form was amazing before the world got shut down.
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