Matt Centrowitz's Rio Gold made him the BEST U.S. Middle Distance Runner Ever

If your thing is doping, Lagat “Forgot B Sample” is way more incriminating than someone like Centro running slower times. Centro is merely suspicious by association. If mere association is the standard, we should write off everyone living and training in Kenya as well.

I'll see your one gold medal for Wottle and raise you three gold medals for Mal Whitfield.

Spoken like someone who hasn't the faintest about the mistested A sample in the Lagat case.

Centro >>>>>

A lot of the argument for Bernard Lagat is based on double gold at the Osaka World Champs. Let's break it down because I think there are some extenuating factors. Yes you can only beat the guys in front of you, but:

1500: Simply put this era (2005-2008) might have been the weakest era of the 1500/mile...possibly ever? El Guerrouj retired early and it was a complete void outside of Lagat (and a doped-up Rashid Ramzi). Throw in that a completely on-form Alan Webb got hurt in a 1:43-high 800 in the lead-up ruining his chances. That's one contender taken down late. World top 5 guy Mehdi Baala was DQ'ed in the prelims. That's another. Defending champ and mainline doper Rashid Ramzi opened up at Worlds as he desperately tried to avoid being popped. This prep could not have been ideal. Now after that, we have a not-there-yet Asbel Kiprop, who PB'ed in the race for 4th, the pretty average Kenyan Shadrack Korir getting bronze, the forgettable Algerian Tarek Boukensa fourth and down the line. The splits for the race were plain unimpressive (53.2x last lap, 1:50ish last 800) as were the names involved for the most part (not sure why Willis ran a disinterested race).

5000: The key factor here: No Bekele! But there was even more Ethiopian chicanery as there was no Sileshi Sihine (World #2, silver in '05) there as well. Not saying those two definitely beat Lagat, but the Ethiopian representation was substantially watered-down. Kipchoge was in there, and Moses Ndiema Kipsiro was a very good runner. Also of note was Edwin Soi missing out on the Kenyan squad by one spot and then winning the 3K/5K double at the World Athletics Finals and bronze at the Olympics the next year. With the Ethiopians missing their top guys this was a complete jog-fest and as expected the 1500 guy won, though he stealthily appeared to block an inside pass from Kipchoge in the last 20 meters. Win's a win, but certainly this was a weaker field than it could have been, and without two Ethiopians who could've pushed the pace it went right into Lagat's hands.

So on closer scrutiny, Lagat had a lot of fortune to pull off the double. I find it pretty unlikely Bekele/Sihine would've been prevented from doubling in an Olympic year. The 1500 was weak to begin with and had two of the top guys either diminished/eliminated. Lagat went silver (to Bekele)-bronze (to Kamel/Mekonnen) in 2009 after an injury-plagued Beijing.

Agree with the previous post that said Centro's Rio Gold was the greatest *performance* of all time. That was a perfectly executed race on the most important stage. Can't top that. But in terms of sustained career excellence, others have had a better careers.

In terms of overall career trajectory, the top three in my mind are Ryun, Lagat, and Jenny Simpson.

Ryun: 1, 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 9

Centro: 5, 5, 8, 8, 10

Lagat: 2, 2, 3, 7

Steve Scott: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 6, 7, 7, 8, 9

Yeah, a guy not yet mentioned in this thread earned more than twice the number of top-10 world rankings as Centro, including 6x top-4, which Centro never received.

Scott was denied his best chance at an Olympic medal by the 1980 boycott. 1984 wasn’t his year and he underperformed in the final, and then placed 5th in 1988 when he was 32 and past his prime.

He won silver at the 1983 Worlds, behind Cram and ahead of these names we remember like Aouita, Ovett, Abascal, Walker, Boit. If there had been a WC every two years throughout his career there’s a good chance he’d have picked up another medal or two.

His PBs of 3:31.76 and 3:47.69 aren’t far off Centro’s 1500 best and they were much more historically significant at the time they were run. The 3:47 was run to win the 1982 Oslo Dream Mile and was at the time the 2nd fastest mile ever run, behind only Coe’s 3:47.33 WR.

As reflected by his world rankings, Scott raced in top European meets and consistently finished top 3 (with his fair share of wins) against the best in the world. Take a look at his 1983 outdoor season: undefeated at 1500/mile except for 2nd to Cram at the WCs, and not shying away from competition whatsoever.

worldathletics.org

Steve SCOTT | Profile | World Athletics

Open link

Regardless of whether you think he can compete with Centro’s championship record, it’d be criminal if we didn’t give Scott due consideration.

Steve Scott would have medaled in 1980 but he would have been totally outclassed and overshadowed by Coe and Ovett, who featured in the two signature events of those Games. Nobody is going to assign best ever to someone best remembered for a well beaten Olympic third followed by a pathetic performance in 1984, which I witnessed in the Coliseum.

Jim Ryun is the first name I thought of. He was the absolute legend when I was a kid. He remains a legend. I was absolutely sick when he tripped in Munich because even as a grade schooler I understood the significance of what a missing Olympic gold would mean to his legacy.

The criticism of Centrowitz' gold is laughable. There is no merit to it other than stamping yourself as an utter fool. I have long envisioned all the sad posters here desperately trying to scrape Matthew Centrowitz and Mo Farah from the record books, while elevating some chumps who ran a meaningless number in a favorable time trial setting.

Once Kiprop imploded with strategy even more absurd than his norm, I knew Centrowitz had it. It was breathtaking to behold. Totally in control. I was already anticipating the post-race views of how his dad had reacted in the stands.

I would say this title belongs to Ryun among track fans but to Centrowitz among the general public.

As always, the perspective of the general public means a heck of a lot more.

I think you’re being a little charitable to Scott. 1980 agree not his fault, tough podium with the top 3 so close. It is tough that in his era he only gets the following cracks at it: 83 (silver, though no Coe), 84 (bricks), 87 (bricks), 88 (solid 5th). Centrowitz got 11 (bronze), 12 (4th), 13 (silver), 15 (8th), 16 (gold), 17 (bombs), 19 (8th). So the great unknown is where could/would Scott have finished in 80, 81 and 85. I’m sorry I can’t see better than bronze in 81 with how Ovett/Coe were running. In 85 the same with Cram/Coe.

I would give Centro the nod as America's best championship racer in the 1500 meters ever. Multiple medals including the Rio Gold. But the best American ever, sorry but no. Not high enough world rankings, nor times as compared to his competitors at his peak. He never won any large European invitationals, particularly those that were run in fast times. Guys like Scott, Ryun, Spivey, and Maree may lack the hardware of Centro, but in their prime they were always threats to win the big invitationals and often they did. Ryun was dominant in the world except in Mexico City, altitude did him in, and Munich when he was tripped and eliminated. I give it to Ryun. There was a several year period he pretty much won everything. Scott second, but he did overrace and had the occasional weak performance from doing so. Webb was clearly the most talented American to date (but that appears to be changing Mr. Nuguse) but his mental issues prevented him from reaching his peak form on a consistent basis.

I think 2016 was actually pretty exciting to watch. Yes, it was excruiatingly slow for 800 meters but the last lap was absolutely all out with lots of action

Makes me wonder if track should start keiren racing. Something like a full mile with a designated pacer and mandated opening lap splits of 65, 62, 60. 10k to the winner and a $1000 bonus for everyone who breaks 4:00 regardless of place.

Ratio + L + Craig is better

There’s also ‘77 when he was 7th in the World Cup and ‘79 when he was 4th in the World Cup - by ‘79 he was a 3:51 miler and getting wins in Lausanne and Stockholm.

But the bigger issue here is that looking at an athlete’s career as merely a series of their Olympic and World Championship finishes is a very shallow view of things. Scott was much, much more relevant on the circuit than Centro—like a McSweyn or Hoare with longevity—and peaked at so much higher on the top lists. I wouldn’t completely neglect those T&F News world rankings and what they say about how Scott and Centro were perceived against their peers.

3.29 in a championship race - and beating the reigning Olympic champ - far outstrips 3.50.

Fair enough just not Centro’s MO. He didn’t race overseas a ton and prioritized medals over fast times or prestigious podium finishes on the circuit. He underperformed in Europe even in his best years. Do we prefer McSweyn who can finish top 3 or 4 in these paced all-out races but so far has been an afterthought when it comes to medaling? Empty world rankings to this point if we’re being honest.

Hard to consider what happened at NOP as "doping." Plus, there's zero (ZERO) evidence of Centro doping. We know that Lagat was not born in the US, and competed for the US after representing Kenya most of his career. To say he's a true American athlete is a stretch.

Hey man, I respect what you're saying and you're right. Not trying to be insensitive to everything you pointed out by what I said.

But I definitely don't think it's unfair for Americans to claim Lagat if he chose to compete for the US and has set American records. America itself is a melting pot of many, many cultures. Everyone is entitled to their heritage and, at the same time, claim their own American-ness. We should be able to celebrate that. And I hope that Lagat can celebrate his Kenyan-ness and Kenyans will celebrate him as well.

If he's the American record holder, I wouldn't say its wrong to claim him as American.

I’m not sure I believe in such a thing. Obviously championships are the most important races but results on the circuit have their own merit.

What is a “true American” athlete? He accomplished more as an American middle distance runner than any other US male.