Was Noureddine Morceli the first African to use EPO in August 1992?

How many people start doping in the middle of a season? Is a 22 year old going from 3.31 to 3.28.8 really that shocking? Was cram going from 331.6 to 3.29.6 really that much different? What about Kerr going from 3:32.5 to 3:29.5? Cheruiyot from 3.31.34 to 3.29.1? Lagat went from 3.30.5 to 3.28.5. they all started doping to run sub 3:30?

There are plenty of 22 year olds who drop 2s off their 1500m times. Most of them aren't starting at 3:31 though. But every 331 guy needs to drop 2s if they are to become a 3:29 guy.

I am not saying he is clean. Tell me he was taking EPO, blood doping, or whatever steroid of the day that was popular and I think it is definitely possible. But he wasn't a noticeable different guy after the olympics than he was before. The explanation of a strain that didn't leave him race sharp pretty much explains the Olympic race.

He pretty much had the progression I would expect for some 21 year old. He just started at a much higher level.

I will say Moreceli at least look tired after some wins🤣

L'innoculateur wrote:

What about your Flo-Joes, Carl Lewis...

I remember Aouita saying in a Radio interview in the 80s that Carl Lewis was a pure propaganda.

I mean Carl Lewis is arguably the biggest joke in Athletics history when it comes to doping.

Mostly because he was framed up as the biggest victim in the whole Ben Johnson affair complete with cut-away shots to his mother praying in the stands as they take their blocks - and he was arguably the worst doper in the entire field. He's basically even admitted it himself (inadvertently) over the years.

Flo-Jo? Might have contributed to her dying at the age of 38. So what about them? Just as bad as anyone of an era, over any distance.

L'innoculateur wrote:

There are a lot of indices that lead to this.
Before August 1992 he was a hard working talented middle distance runner but not at the same level as Aouita (who at that time was in a declining carrer 32/33+ year).

From September 1989 to August 1992 he was unable to past the cap of 3 min 31 sec in the 1500m.

Then in a struggling year (3 defeats) he jumped in the space of 2 weeks to 3min 28 sec 86.

EPO saved his carrer because after that he transformed in a killing machine for 4 years.

Link:www.caaweb.org/en/index.php/archives/b...

In 91 Morceli has run 3:31.00, 3:31.00, 3:31.01. At the world champs he obviously was in sub 3:30 shape. Before Barcelona 92 because of injury he was far from his best. After the games he came back to his best and improved his PB to 3:30.75. His 3:28.86 WR was run in Rieti which was known for his super fast times in year after year perfect conditions (what else?). To conclude because of this he might have started to use EPO after the games is hard to beat in his pure ridiculousness. In 91 he was in much better form than in 92. What was really astonishing was his 7:25.11 WR in 94 and his 95 level.

L'innoculateur wrote:

7:29.24 (3000m) (why they don't count this as a WR at that time?)

To run a WR you have to run at least as fast as the existing WR. You understand?

ppppppppp wrote:

Coevett wrote:

and then improved his personal best by nearly 2 1/2 seconds in 4 weeks

He didn't.

He's incapable of refraining from lying. His word is mud.

If he was back to his best right after the Olympics, why did he lose a mile race to Kemei by a full second (after Zurich)?

How do do you go from 'far from your best' and finishing 7th in the Olympic final to running 2.14 seconds faster than your pb and 1/2 second faster than Aouita's WR...in 4 weeks? Yeah, it's absolutely crazy to suggest EPO might have been the reason when EPO was starting to be used by the elites that very summer and Morceli had just had a personal close up demonstration of its effectiveness from Cacho.

2.14 seconds in 4 weeks - it's hardly a stretch to describe that as 'nearly 2 1/2 seconds', although 'more than 2 seconds' would have been fairer.

You mean - how many elite athletes decide to start doping after being crushed in an Olympic final they were favorites for by a doped up inferior rival, in the very season that (most people here seem to agree) EPO was coming on to the scene?

Cram was injured in 1984 and managed to win Olympic silver despite being clearly not in as good shape as in 1983. So he went from 3:31 to 3:29 between 83 and 85. Presumably, if he had not gotten injured in 84, he would have improved his pbs in that year.

If Crammy had ran 3:28 four weeks after LA, it would have been odd. Odder still if the summer of 1984 had been the generally accepted year in which EPO was starting to be used by many top runners. If Cram had not been beaten by Coe in LA, but by Abascal running a 50 second last lap and obviously juiced up by the new EPO drug....

Coevett wrote:

2.14 seconds iks - in 4 weeks it's hardly a stretch to describe that as 'nearly 2 1/2 seconds', although 'more than 2 seconds' would have been fairer.

2.14 is not almost 2 1/2. You lied, as usual.

Semantics.

I agree with Salvatore that it's at least as likely that Morceli was always doping, but I don't see why a couple here are saying it's wildly implausible he started after Barcelona.

The thing is, we all seem to agree that Morceli was on EPO most of his career. So the question is - when did he start using it? This is a difficult question, because most people here think that EPO wasn't being used by runners until at least 91 or 92.

So at what point in his career did he start using it? The biggest 'jump' in his career occured right after Barcelona. That's all we can say.

Coevett wrote:

Semantics.

No, fact. You lied, as usual.

You mean the same injury and getting crushed at the Olympics excuse that caused Moreceli to dope? After seeing Coe go from nothing to world beater in a few months after getting back on the sauce?

These debates will never be resolved. We know the sport was absolutely rife with doping by the '90's and no top athlete could have dominated without doping. But we still see that there are those who think there will be exceptions at the top who were "clean" or that they were only "a little bit" doping. The proverbial horse bolted long ago and it is a pointless academic exercise to ask if it was doped.

Armstronglivs wrote:

These debates will never be resolved. We know the sport was absolutely rife with doping by the '90's and no top athlete could have dominated without doping. But we still see that there are those who think there will be exceptions at the top who were "clean" or that they were only "a little bit" doping. The proverbial horse bolted long ago and it is a pointless academic exercise to ask if it was doped.

Are Nick Willis, Tom Walsh and Valerie Adams dopers? John Walker? Dick Quax? Rod Dixon? Peter Snell?

The brother of Morceli and his coach.

(2013)

Met at the headquarters of the Algerian Olympic Committee (COA), Abderrahmane Morceli, older brother of Noureddine, our world and Olympic champion in the 1500 m, and also the one who was his coach and who experienced real moments of glory with him, kindly tell us about his career and give us his opinion on current Algerian athletics. Aged 56 today, Abderrahmane has a great experience in the world of high-level sport.

- Tell us first what is your current activity?
Since 2004, I have been a middle-distance coach at Riverside City College (RCC) in the USA, which is 60 km from Los Angeles. This is the very establishment where my brother Noureddine studied and where he also trained. Two Olympic champions, including Noureddine, studied there. We are considered the best in the USA, having won the US National Championship five times. Our level of training also allowed us to send 175 athletes to universities, from which some elements won their place in the national team.

- But how did you take up residence in this college?
To tell the truth, I left to rest in the USA after a long career as an athlete and also following the hard work as Noureddine's trainer and I had the idea of developing the middle distance in the Californian center. This is how high school students were brought in to integrate them into college, which is basically a pre-university level lasting two years. Our goal is to have our elements in the national teams. For example Brandon Johnson, who is my athlete, is there. He is 5th in the world in the 800m with a time of 1'43''85. We also have the best junior athlete, Ruiz Guiterrez, who is preparing for the 2016 and 2020 Olympics.

This post pretty much pinpoints the emergence of EPO at 800m, 1500m, steeple, and 5000m. These were the first major drops in the 1990s at each distance. Now, it is quite possible that Morceli was actually taking for the first time in 1991 when he closed a 3:32 in an unheard of 51, which meant that he was intrinsically a 3:28 guy already, at least. But here you see the first clear signs of EPO in

800m Wilson Kipketer 1:41.83 Rieti 9/1/96

1500m Morceli 3:28.86 9/6/92 (possibly '91)

Steeple Kiptanui 7:59.52 8/25/95

5000m Kiptanui 12:55.30, Komen 12:56.15, and Bikila 12:57.23, all 6/8/95, and Geb 12:44.39 August 16, 1995 (first clear mass EPO evidence)

I'll also grant that Spain's Cacho, from a country with a rich doping history, was at the cutting edge. He hadn't done a fast time trial style race in advance of the Olympics, so we only saw later that he was a 3:28 guy.

zxcvzxcv wrote:

This post pretty much pinpoints the emergence of EPO at 800m, 1500m, steeple, and 5000m. These were the first major drops in the 1990s at each distance. Now, it is quite possible that Morceli was actually taking for the first time in 1991 when he closed a 3:32 in an unheard of 51, which meant that he was intrinsically a 3:28 guy already, at least. But here you see the first clear signs of EPO in

800m Wilson Kipketer 1:41.83 Rieti 9/1/96

1500m Morceli 3:28.86 9/6/92 (possibly '91)

Steeple Kiptanui 7:59.52 8/25/95

5000m Kiptanui 12:55.30, Komen 12:56.15, and Bikila 12:57.23, all 6/8/95, and Geb 12:44.39 August 16, 1995 (first clear mass EPO evidence)

I'll also grant that Spain's Cacho, from a country with a rich doping history, was at the cutting edge. He hadn't done a fast time trial style race in advance of the Olympics, so we only saw later that he was a 3:28 guy.

Considering 1:41.7 was a time run in 1981, why would it being run 15 years later with better surfaces be any evidence of EPO? Additionally the 5,000 jump doesn’t really take place until Geb. 12:55-6 are marginal improvements from Aouita and even Moorcroft.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Considering 1:41.7 was a time run in 1981, why would it being run 15 years later with better surfaces be any evidence of EPO? Additionally the 5,000 jump doesn’t really take place until Geb. 12:55-6 are marginal improvements from Aouita and even Moorcroft.

Yeah the almost 20s drop in the 5k/50s in the 10k is a lot sketchier. Maybe it took them time to get the dose right but that 1995-2005 era was much different than 1999-1994. I would be shocked if roids and blood transfusions were still state of the art. But then things went nuts.

But if you think a 3:31 21 year old needs a new drug to run 2.2s faster, you are reaching.