Craig Mottram’s 2006 season is something you’d NEVER see from an American in 2022/2023

Then why don’t China and India have more medals? Olli Hoare and Morgan McDonald training in the USA under an American coach shows it’s not just a numbers game. If Americans were so “soft” as the OP claims, they would not be here.

He got Bideau'd.

You are way off.

Solinsky and Tegenkamp were not overraced by any means. Tegenkamp had a long, slightly above average career. highlights were just early with the 13:04 and 4th at Worlds. Solinsky got hurt not because of overracing but because he ran 5:30 pace every day.

Fisher raced 11 times last year (not counting prelims). All were extreme high quality, including American records in the 3k, 10k, and 5ki- all times far superior than mottram’s times for the same distance.

You’re right Motram a better athlete great races against the top 2 long distance athletes of all time at their peaks.

Times are now faster due to technology.

Agree. I think Fisher is the better runner and Mottram quite suspect. Talk to anyone from Oz.

Fisher is a better bloke, the big Mazungo literally can't even buy friends

You just chopped off my next sentence, which goes a long way towards explaining your first question.

My comment read:

"You do have 12 times the population of Australia, 6 times the population of Kenya and 3 times the population of Ethiopia.

Not to mention, your HDI absolutely dwarfs that of the latter two nations."

It's very easy to argue, when all you do is select the things you want to address and then ignore the rest.

And to address your follow-up point. Olli Hoare and Morgan MacDonald's success demonstrates that when Australians have access to the amount of resources that are thrown at distance running by the American system, they absolutely mop the floor with Americans.

Mottram was a very good world class runner. He was not a world record holder or a gold medalist.

I ignored your HDI comment because it’s not relevant to the discussion. The OP and I weren’t discussing HDI. We were discussing whether or not Americans are soft.

The OP accused Americans like Fisher of being soft for not racing as often as an Australian who burned out after enjoying some fleeting but hardly Earth-shattering success. I refuted the OP by demonstrating that Fisher is better than the Australian whom the OP puts on a pedestal, pointing out that Americans have won more global championship 800-marathon medals than all but two countries who are known to have doping problems, and remarking about the fact that two of today’s best Australian runners are training in the USA under an American coach.

Again, this discussion isn’t about HDI, which happens to be higher in Australia than the USA (USA isn’t even in the top 20 for HDI). It’s about whether or not American runners are soft. The large number of middle and long distance medals won by American athletes, regardless of USA population size and HDI, prove that our runners are not soft. The fact that two of Australian’s best runners are being developed by the American system (first as collegians and continuing today as professionals) further makes the OP look foolish.

Why stay in Australia? Train with Bideau in Melbourne and get some sort of side job or go to the USA, get an education (for free) and continue running and racing in the Northern Hemisphere. It's a no brainer.

Yes, it was undeniably a smart decision for them to come to the USA. That decision, along with their successful development in the USA, shows the OP is wrong.

Mottram was sensational at the time and the only non African that people believed had a shot to actually medal on the toughest stages...the guy ran 12:58 with no pacers and got second at the Commonwealth games back when that was a big big meet for Kenya and was clearly disappointed meanwhile Grant is out of the medals crossing the line literally giving a thumbs up as he does it...you gotta be kidding me. Who was the big threat at those games? Limo and he was the world champion at the time...Mottram beat him and he was not happy he was there to win. You're talking 16 years ago when almost anyone here is ready to throw times from 4 years ago into the garbage with the technology available. 2:06 now yeah the guy is a bum but some dude is 12 seconds faster in the 5K in a time trial vs a championship race no less and he's obviously better. Gtfoh. It's a fallacy to talk up a guy in his prime vs someone that wrapped it up over a decade ago. This could easily be the best year Grant Fisher has ever had and if he never reaches these heights no one will remember any of it because he didn't win jack. Look at Rupp. How many asinine posts did my eyes have to suffer through over the years about how he was gonna dust Kipchoge and he was clearly capable of 2:02?? Years and years later his PR is still ballpark what sensible people predicted...he's capable of 2:05ish. Grant Fisher got beat at the US Trials in a very slow sit and kick race by JOE KLECKER with like a 1:58 last 800 and people were stunned that he won that as it happened. You should never compare someone at their peak with someone past their prime or retired. You're comparing potential (usually reaching wildly) to what has actually occured.

Training with BTC seems pretty sus.

Nobody will run for him, surely this is cancelled?

LOL. You wish you could do this:

Watch that '06 Commonwealth 5000 if you need reminding that Mo was an irrelevant also- ran at that time. I am not sure how he got into that event or whom he represented.

Mottram’s 8:03 full two mile is worth way faster than 7:32. Maybe equivalent to Fisher’s 3k.

Mottram’s size certainly played a factor into his longer distance performances but I also wonder if his training was geared more towards 1500/3000/5000 than Fisher. They run/ran similar mileage (150-180km per week) but Mottram was doing 8-10x1k and 30-40 minute tempos and hills, not 10x mile and 10 mile tempos like Grant. I would be a bit surprised to see Grant run 3:48 though.

Can we not just say that both runners are impressive, though in different ways? Mottram ran some super ballsy and impressive performances again Africans at a time when no one was doing that, which made him quite the badass. He also may have overraced (see above post about # of races per year), decreasing his longevity, and possibly contributing to his somewhat sparse world champs/Olympics resume (only one top 8 performance outdoors aside from bronze in 05).

Fisher is running in a very different era, with much faster times and more non Africans who are relevant at the global stage. He is a great time trialer, and has some solid but unspectacular world champs/oly finishes in his 2 attempts. Has he shown the cajones of Mottram in championship races, taking the lead against the likes of Haile and Berkeley from over a lap out? No, not yet, and maybe never will (though I hope otherwise). And is the racing schedule of the BTC team a bit frustrating? Yes absolutely. But he is probably setting himself for more longevity in his career, and it wasn’t like he ducked big diamond league competition this year to run fast times (his 1246 and 728s were diamond league races after all).

At the end of the day we can respect Mottrams fearless approach to racing, and acknowledge that top Americans (eg Rupp, Fisher) may end up with more accomplishments at the world stage by taking a different approach.