Your first paragraph is a waste of time and space because I already wrote that I took responsibility for my situation and then took the necessary steps to improve it.
Your first three questions about the alleged sexual assault and that investigation are irrelevant to the suicide.
Your questions about the coffee incident are redundant because I already wrote: “I wish we could see the actual letter because it seems like there is a lot of info about this situation we don’t have.”
Your post has done nothing to advance this discussion.
My first paragraph was necessary because you were comparing two entirely different situations. You were completely responsible for the mess you created. Meyer was NOT.
How was the investigation on sexual assault irrelevant? Do you think she just spilled the coffee because she did not like the football player? Have you ever sexually assaulted? Has any of your close friends ever been sexually assaulted? What would be your reaction if nothing was done about the assault?
And since you don't know anything about the actual situation, you should not have judged her. Your original post did nothing to advance the discussion. Wait, it did insult the deceased person by suggesting she was too weak, unlike yourself.
Meyer was 100% responsible for her own actions. If she threw coffee at someone she believed assaulted her friend and got away with it, many people might believe that action was justified, but she would nonetheless be responsible for the coffee incident. So yes, she would have created that mess for herself.
We know she committed suicide. She is responsible for that action, not the university.
Oh I don't know. How about just not blindsiding a student with a disciplinary notice threatening serious punishment without reaching out to them first and speaking to them directly. Its not rocket science.
Total BS. When I was in college, I got a threatening letter telling me I was on academic probation and would be expelled from the university if I didn’t get my GPA up above 2.0 by the end of the next semester. Nobody spoke to me directly. All I got was the letter. Did I kill myself? No, I took responsibility for my actions, cut back on the partying, spent more time studying, and got my grades up. It’s called resilience. Sadly, kids these days lack it.
#MeToo [That said, Stanford failed this young woman in multiple ways, she wasn't just some random student but under closer scrutiny / observation. The sc*m who comprise the overwhelming majority of university admin typs dgaf about that, however.]
The proper procedure is to notify both parties seperately that they need to meet with admin also seperately regarding a situation that has been brought to their attention. This can be e-mail, but also a formal letter, anything that documents the request. You don't specify the problem until the people are in person and you get their side of the incident.
This is standard procedure for Human Resource Departments and if Stanford didn't take it through the proper channel and protocol then yes, they can be held accountable...to what extent well, that's why there's a lawsuit.
She did it intentionally. If it were an accident, the person would have a right to be upset and may force her to pay for the ruined clothes, but there’s NO WAY Stanford would have expelled any student, let alone a student athlete, for an accident like that.
Stanford beta football player is aggressive with girl and can't handle a moment of retaliation? IF his beta male story is even true.
And if it is, what does that say about the big bad Cardinal gridiron turd who goes running to campus "authorities?" She got me!
Meyer was 100% responsible for her own actions. If she threw coffee at someone she believed assaulted her friend and got away with it, many people might believe that action was justified, but she would nonetheless be responsible for the coffee incident. So yes, she would have created that mess for herself.
We know she committed suicide. She is responsible for that action, not the university.
Do you think spilling coffee over someone deserves expulsion from school, but a sex offender should get away with it? Whay kind of value do you have? Is it your fault or did your parents fail?
You don't even know basic facts, and you judge a deceased person for "lacking resilence"? I would be interested in what kind of reslience you have when you face real adversity, which you have apparently never experienced.
Meyer was 100% responsible for her own actions. If she threw coffee at someone she believed assaulted her friend and got away with it, many people might believe that action was justified, but she would nonetheless be responsible for the coffee incident. So yes, she would have created that mess for herself.
We know she committed suicide. She is responsible for that action, not the university.
Do you think spilling coffee over someone deserves expulsion from school, but a sex offender should get away with it? Whay kind of value do you have? Is it your fault or did your parents fail?
You don't even know basic facts, and you judge a deceased person for "lacking resilence"? I would be interested in what kind of reslience you have when you face real adversity, which you have apparently never experienced.
Right. Do we have any info about the football player, his name, if law enforcement was involved with this alleged assault?
Meyer was 100% responsible for her own actions. If she threw coffee at someone she believed assaulted her friend and got away with it, many people might believe that action was justified, but she would nonetheless be responsible for the coffee incident. So yes, she would have created that mess for herself.
We know she committed suicide. She is responsible for that action, not the university.
Do you think spilling coffee over someone deserves expulsion from school, but a sex offender should get away with it? Whay kind of value do you have? Is it your fault or did your parents fail?
You don't even know basic facts, and you judge a deceased person for "lacking resilence"? I would be interested in what kind of reslience you have when you face real adversity, which you have apparently never experienced.
I never said anything about the football player. If he committed sexual assault, then yes of course he should be held responsible for that and be expelled plus thrown in jail. If he’s guilty and got away with it, that’s terrible. But that doesn’t mean Meyer can throw coffee at him. You think she’s the only one who cared about the person who says she was assaulted? Did that person not have other friends at the school? Relatives? Did they assault the football player?
I also never said that throwing or spilling coffee on someone warrants expulsion. Stop attacking me for things I never said. I’m not sure if it warrants expulsion or not. I suppose it depends on the extent and severity of the burns. But I know one thing for sure it doesn’t warrant: suicide.
Do you think spilling coffee over someone deserves expulsion from school, but a sex offender should get away with it? Whay kind of value do you have? Is it your fault or did your parents fail?
You don't even know basic facts, and you judge a deceased person for "lacking resilence"? I would be interested in what kind of reslience you have when you face real adversity, which you have apparently never experienced.
I never said anything about the football player. If he committed sexual assault, then yes of course he should be held responsible for that and be expelled plus thrown in jail. If he’s guilty and got away with it, that’s terrible. But that doesn’t mean Meyer can throw coffee at him. You think she’s the only one who cared about the person who says she was assaulted? Did that person not have other friends at the school? Relatives? Did they assault the football player?
I also never said that throwing or spilling coffee on someone warrants expulsion. Stop attacking me for things I never said. I’m not sure if it warrants expulsion or not. I suppose it depends on the extent and severity of the burns. But I know one thing for sure it doesn’t warrant: suicide.
You would have a really tough time using a dead person's state of mind as evidence. Unless you knew 100% that the young lady had no current or previous mental health issues it would be foolish to go down that road in defense. And even if there was no history I wouldn't go there.
I never said anything about the football player. If he committed sexual assault, then yes of course he should be held responsible for that and be expelled plus thrown in jail. If he’s guilty and got away with it, that’s terrible. But that doesn’t mean Meyer can throw coffee at him. You think she’s the only one who cared about the person who says she was assaulted? Did that person not have other friends at the school? Relatives? Did they assault the football player?
I also never said that throwing or spilling coffee on someone warrants expulsion. Stop attacking me for things I never said. I’m not sure if it warrants expulsion or not. I suppose it depends on the extent and severity of the burns. But I know one thing for sure it doesn’t warrant: suicide.
You would have a really tough time using a dead person's state of mind as evidence. Unless you knew 100% that the young lady had no current or previous mental health issues it would be foolish to go down that road in defense. And even if there was no history I wouldn't go there.
Where do you see me “using a dead person’s state of mind as evidence?”
You would have a really tough time using a dead person's state of mind as evidence. Unless you knew 100% that the young lady had no current or previous mental health issues it would be foolish to go down that road in defense. And even if there was no history I wouldn't go there.
Where do you see me “using a dead person’s state of mind as evidence?”
When you said whatever she did doesn't warrant suicide. Are you a mental health expert?
“Without any warning”? What kind of warning do you think the university should give? Send a student an email to warn them that a disciplinary email will be coming?
I don't particularly think that the university should be held civilly liable, but they certainly didn't handle it in the best way possible. If you are considering expelling a student, that news should be delivered face to face in an actual meeting.
I'm a program director for a medical residency, so dealing with disciplinary action is part of my job (thankfully one that comes up very infrequently). The thought of including "oh, hey, there's a chance we might kick you out of the program, but we'll talk about it later" in an email or letter to one of my residents would simply never cross my mind. The ONLY way that threat gets conveyed to someone is in a face to face meeting, and it would be accompanied by a detailed explanation of exactly how the process would unfold including any potential options to appeal.
Should the university lose a lawsuit? Probably not, at least based on the information we have. Should they be embarrassed for their lack of professionalism in the way they handled the situation? Absolutely.
Here is the Stanford judicial process. Nothing about what is in the letter.
When I was a college administrator we notified people via campus mail (email was not common then). Our letters were pro forma and only mentioned the allegation and whom to meet with (most often me). Now people knew that disciplinary action could be from nothing to expulsion (although expulsions are rare).
My guess is the letter (email) informed her of the charges and laid out her rights including the chance to meet with someone during normal business hours. I cannot see that sending the email after 4:30 is really a big deal considering people often work late or even shifted schedules and it is 2022. As a college admin, I often worked evening hours and had email been around I would have sent them after 5pm.
Also, even if the email had been sent at 8am, it is highly unlikely someone from the judicial office could have or would have met with her at 8:30am.
Also, the judicial group would likely have no way of knowing she was mentally fragile.
I find this to be an extreme long shot based on what I have read, but who knows.
Also, I suspect the player in question thinks the coffee (that could be pretty hot and cause harm) was not accidently spilled. The claim is she was sticking for her teammate, well unless the teammate was being assaulted at the time throwing (if that is what happened) then the football player was the victim. Exacting revenge months later is not ok.
As for another comment about the school condoning rape, the player in question was booted.
It sucks that this woman did not get the help she needed or did not take advantage of help that was offered.
Where do you see me “using a dead person’s state of mind as evidence?”
When you said whatever she did doesn't warrant suicide. Are you a mental health expert?
Do I need to be a mental health expert to believe someone shouldn’t kill herself over getting in trouble for a coffee incident? Do I need to be a mental health expert to believe that people are responsible for their own actions?
Remember: the lawsuit states that she had no prior history of mental illness.
The tough guy brigade needs to slow their roll. It appears that she spilled/tossed coffee on a football player suspected of sexually assaulting her teammate. Six months go by with no disciplinary hearing or action being taken over the coffee incident. Out of the blue and on the last day that a disciplinary action can be filed, the university e-mails her after hours that she may lose her scholarship and be expelled from one of the finest institutions on the planet. She is blindsided, panics, and, without the ability to speak to a counselor or to someone to explain the charges and process, she spirals and kills herself.
Stanford’s actions were low class and callously casual for such an important potential action. We also don’t know much about the young woman and her mental health leading up to this. It is inappropriate and cruel to label her weak or to fault her family for filing a suit. The court will decide the matter.
It is quite possible the player filed the complaint in the days leading up to the letter. I doubt they sat on the complaint for 6 months.
Have you seen the email and what it contained? Was there any mention of expulsion?
She could speak to a counselor at any time. University counseling centers have procedures for after hours situations. She could have talked to her coach as well.
The judicial folks probably handle hundreds of complaints each year in just this way. The fact that it was after hours in 2022 is a joke, right? If the email had been sent at 8am she might still not have been able to meet with anyone for a few days.
I do not think she was weak, but troubled obviously. If you could foresee this outcome then we need you to prevent every suicide out there since you have special abilities.
I don't particularly think that the university should be held civilly liable, but they certainly didn't handle it in the best way possible. If you are considering expelling a student, that news should be delivered face to face in an actual meeting.
I'm a program director for a medical residency, so dealing with disciplinary action is part of my job (thankfully one that comes up very infrequently). The thought of including "oh, hey, there's a chance we might kick you out of the program, but we'll talk about it later" in an email or letter to one of my residents would simply never cross my mind. The ONLY way that threat gets conveyed to someone is in a face to face meeting, and it would be accompanied by a detailed explanation of exactly how the process would unfold including any potential options to appeal.
Should the university lose a lawsuit? Probably not, at least based on the information we have. Should they be embarrassed for their lack of professionalism in the way they handled the situation? Absolutely.
I disagree. Mainly, there's no evidence that they handled the situation unprofessionally, and Stanford shouldn't be expected to operate as though any student could kill themselves when told they are subject to being potentially expelled.
This is what it sounds like to me: A student took some action that was so severe, they could be expelled for it. The most charitable assumption for the girl is that she didn't have good enough grades. More likely, it was cheating on an exam. The university sent her an email saying she could potentially be expelled based on whatever action she made, and she killed herself that night.
As someone who is both in college and has struggled with depression before: No reasonable person would kill themselves solely because of the threat of potentially being expelled. Many depressed people wouldn't. My guess is that she was already in a really bad mental state and contemplating suicide, and the email is what set her over the edge.
Obviously, it's terrible that it happened, but I don't think Stanford (or any college for that matter) should have to operate as though they have to assume that any student threatened with expulsion could kill themselves. If it's something with their grades, they have a huge amount of resources open to them. If it was something like cheating on an exam, not only does everyone know they could be expelled for it, but it damages the reputation of the school, and can get them unaccredited if left unpunished. Adults who choose to make that decision shouldn't be coddled by the institution they're putting at risk. An email alerting someone that they could be expelled for something they did is a completely professional way to handle it. Maybe not for a medical resident, but absolutely for a college student.
My college has academic advisors, peer advisors, mental health counseling, professors have to offer office hours, and plenty more all for free, and my school is no Stanford. All of the resources are there for students to take advantage. It's terrible what happened to that girl, but I don't think it's reasonable to put blame on Stanford for it.
It would help your argument if you got your facts straight. She was not accused of cheating. The email she received would explain exactly what policy she had allegedly violated.
The proper procedure is to notify both parties seperately that they need to meet with admin also seperately regarding a situation that has been brought to their attention. This can be e-mail, but also a formal letter, anything that documents the request. You don't specify the problem until the people are in person and you get their side of the incident.
This is standard procedure for Human Resource Departments and if Stanford didn't take it through the proper channel and protocol then yes, they can be held accountable...to what extent well, that's why there's a lawsuit.
Meyer was 100% responsible for her own actions. If she threw coffee at someone she believed assaulted her friend and got away with it, many people might believe that action was justified, but she would nonetheless be responsible for the coffee incident. So yes, she would have created that mess for herself.
We know she committed suicide. She is responsible for that action, not the university.
Do you think spilling coffee over someone deserves expulsion from school, but a sex offender should get away with it? Whay kind of value do you have? Is it your fault or did your parents fail?
You don't even know basic facts, and you judge a deceased person for "lacking resilence"? I would be interested in what kind of reslience you have when you face real adversity, which you have apparently never experienced.
"Spilling" no, throwing probably no as well depending on how badly the person was harmed assuming the coffee was hot.
I read that the football player was expelled (or left) so while not a punishment one might want (assuming he did it) anything else is really beyond Stanford's control. Also the parents claim that her suicide was not planned. I wonder about that. People often make and talk about plans for the future before attempting suicide. Booking plane tickets is not really evidence that suicide was on her mind.
Alas, I suspect that Stanford sends hundreds of judicial emails a year (maybe thousands) and would have no reason to think "Hey someone is going to kill themselves" even if the 6 pages detail potential penalties (that would seem strange at least in my day). Sending the email after hours in 2022 to college students does not seem that strange. Even if sent during hours, she likely would not be able to talk to anyone immediately. Plus Stanford says there is a number to call in the letter. That seems like something pretty easy to settle.
I never said anything about the football player. If he committed sexual assault, then yes of course he should be held responsible for that and be expelled plus thrown in jail. If he’s guilty and got away with it, that’s terrible. But that doesn’t mean Meyer can throw coffee at him. You think she’s the only one who cared about the person who says she was assaulted? Did that person not have other friends at the school? Relatives? Did they assault the football player?
I also never said that throwing or spilling coffee on someone warrants expulsion. Stop attacking me for things I never said. I’m not sure if it warrants expulsion or not. I suppose it depends on the extent and severity of the burns. But I know one thing for sure it doesn’t warrant: suicide.
You would have a really tough time using a dead person's state of mind as evidence. Unless you knew 100% that the young lady had no current or previous mental health issues it would be foolish to go down that road in defense. And even if there was no history I wouldn't go there.
From CNN, the lawsuit claims she had no history of mental health issues. Sorry but I find this hard to believe. Her parents might not have known or might have missed things. (The second guessing I would be doing would be off the charts). But when people kill themselves it often comes out how they struggled. The mental health of college students has gotten progressively worse over the last couple of decades (or more college students are reporting issues) and there have been numerous college athletes who have been very open about their struggles (pro athletes as well).
The family of Katie Meyer, a star soccer player who died by suicide last spring, has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Stanford University and several administrators alleging their actions surrounding a potential discipl...
When you said whatever she did doesn't warrant suicide. Are you a mental health expert?
Do I need to be a mental health expert to believe someone shouldn’t kill herself over getting in trouble for a coffee incident? Do I need to be a mental health expert to believe that people are responsible for their own actions?
Remember: the lawsuit states that she had no prior history of mental illness.
You can have your opinion but that's about it. Again, how do you know her state of mind? It doesn't matter if there was no history if the situation itself drove her to suicide. This essentially is what the lawsuit is about.
Do I need to be a mental health expert to believe someone shouldn’t kill herself over getting in trouble for a coffee incident? Do I need to be a mental health expert to believe that people are responsible for their own actions?
Remember: the lawsuit states that she had no prior history of mental illness.
You can have your opinion but that's about it. Again, how do you know her state of mind? It doesn't matter if there was no history if the situation itself drove her to suicide. This essentially is what the lawsuit is about.
I never claimed to know her state of mind. I’m just saying she’s responsible for her own actions.
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