LetsRun anti-doping challenge #1 - What can the sport do to clean itself up?

Yes to the first part. But why do you see it not as a "correct measure"?

I realize we can't go back in time, so something like that needs to be announced now, and then become the rule in 2023: if you get banned for an ARDV, you lose all your titles, records, and times.

Which athlete could protest against such a measure with a straight face before getting caught?

It's really embarrassing that Kiprop and Sumgong can still rightfully claim to be Olympic champions.

My idea contribution is a powerful ass steam cleaner for the sport to clean itself up. Hoping it gets taken up by WA.

Positive drug tests should void all previous race results and prize money. All prize and sponorship money ever won must be returned, if you don't have the money to pay it back you go into bankruptcy (or preferably debter's prison's).

The advantage of this policy is it can be enforced on multiple levels. Governments can pass laws that effectuate this policy. Races can write it into the contract that any future positive drug test will lead to the revocation of prize money. Sponsors can write a similar provision into their contracts, and any company that doesn't can be bullied for "promoting drug use".

Armstrong was paid period. That’s part of current system that needs overhaul too. Go after cheats for criminal fraud. Little chance of recovering money years later but like white collar crime tax evasion seems to be what sends people to prison and deterrent to others. Armstrong did have everything stripped away but he’s now reinvented himself as podcaster. Maybe like government does with former hackers form a group of former cheaters to figure out best system to deter others going forward.

I say it's not "obvious" (this is not my personal take) because it depends on how you view doping and the appropriate punishments retroactively. If Kiprop DID beat everyone fair and square in 2008 and we knew this as a fact, would you still think it is the correct punishment to strip his gold medal? I think some would, but not all would. We don't know that he cheated to cross the line second in 2008, just as we don't know Nick Willis was clean in crossing the line 3rd. Neither guy failed a test contemporaneously.

If your key goal is to create a major deterrent, then yes stripping away all past accomplishments seems "correct." But there are downsides with some of the less egregious doping violations. Would you advocate for the same treatment with whereabouts violations, stimulants, substances not banned out-of-competition etc.? Maybe so, and then you can go full-on zero tolerance.

I am of two minds, that we either accept drugs are not going away, or we refuse to back down. If we indeed want to curtail cheating by doping, then the punishments have to be more severe. I think a first offense should be 1) Four ban (i.e. the loss of one Olympic and two World Champs cycles 2) a forfeiture of ALL previously existing results and records and 3) Restitution of ALL moneys won. Basically we should make punishment so painful that it won't be worth the risk, because you not just wagering your future, but your past as well. A second offense would be a lifetime ban from participation in any way, as an athlete, coach or athlete representative, with the further stipulation that any athlete who becomes involved would themselves be subject to a ban as fruit of the poison tree.

The other approach is one where we accept that drugs are here to stay, and in so doing, we bring it out into the open and regulate the use, so we can keep it distinct. Treat it like the difference between amateur and professional. Have two competition classes, for athletes who are aided by drugs, and those who are not, and are willing to be subject to rigorous testing, as well as consequences for using drugs and not openly disclosing. One could for example, start off as a clean athlete, and then they can declare they will switch to performance enhancing and they would then enter the new performance class, but once this is done, there is no going back. The earlier status is forever lost to them, and they must compete as a PE athlete, even if they have ceased using PE. Anyone who competes in the clean class, and is caught using PE, would be subject to severe penalties.

That would be my approach. Either we slam down the hammer hard on dopers, or we establish a new competition class where PE is tolerated but kept separate and distinct from clean competition.

I've quickly read some of the previous answers. Many can work, but I wonder what the cost will be. Increasing dramatically the number of tests is not sustainable. The simplest solution I can think of, which I'don't hope for our sport, is to come back to amateur competition : mix it with the present sanction system, and I can't imagine who would be tempted by doping.

Otherwise, I quite agree with some proposals, about criminalyzing doping practices, but for the coaches/doctors/guru/... rather than the athletes. If one of those has doping on his hand, it's likely he help numerous athletes to do so, thus facing far more risk to be catched.

If it is a serious ban, say of two years or more, then yes. And remember I advocated of announcing such a rule before acting on it, so potential dopers are warned and can include this punishment in their risk analysis.

I would say start with commonsense. This sport lives in fantasy land compared to sports where the lid has been blown off regarding doping, such as cycling, cross country skiing, swimming or even sprinting. If you see something odd, such as a huge jump in an athlete's pr, or the ability to run times historical associated with doping times, or the ability to run times normally associated with professional dopers, or the ability to outperform other confirmed dopers, stop coming up with pie in the sky explanations about magic genes or cultures of running or the magic late bloomer dna and accept the most logical explanation. In a magic pill sport there has to be skepticism.

I like this. I think coaches should bear the brunt. They're the pushers. Take out the coaches tied to doping, and I think you'll see fewer athletes dope because they have lost the connection, and don't have the system in place to take the drugs effectively to avoid detection.

Great thread! WHY is there so little drug testing occurring, particularly at many high-profile road races like CIM? First, let’s consider who/what the 2 options are for any race director looking to implement drug testing at a USATF sanctioned road race.

Option 1 – Race director joins the World Athletics Label Program (comprised of 4 different levels), which can cost as little as $1,000 up to $50,000 depending on the distance and competitive level of said race. World Athletics becomes the results management authority (RMA) for the samples collected at the event.
World Athletics Label Program document

There is a minimum # of anti-doping tests that must be conducted at the event. The race director can then select any 3rd party sample collection company (USADA, Clearidium, Drug Free Sport, PWC, etc.) to collect the samples on race day. The cost to collect & analyze the samples is in addition to the cost of joining the World Athletics program. The benefit to this system – if any athlete has an adverse analytical finding (aka – “positive test”), World Athletics burdens the entire legal process and all legal fees.

Option 2 – Race director contracts directly with USADA to conduct drug testing which requires an upfront legal retainer of $10K to $20K (this fee does not include the cost to collect and analyze samples). USADA becomes the RMA for the samples collected at the event. The downside to this system – if any athlete has an adverse analytical finding, the race organization will be billed directly by USADA for legal fees. There’s no way of knowing how much $ this could be. I assume most race directors see this as FAR too risky, especially when you consider the number of foreign athletes that have recently tested positive after an In-Competition event.

World Athletics and USADA are the only organizations with the ability to be the results management authority. World Athletics can be RMA because they are the International Federation (IF) overseeing all disciplines of the sport. USADA can be RMA because they are the national anti-doping organization (NADO) for all US sanctioned sports, in this case under USATF jurisdiction. The same logic applies to races hosted in any other country. If a conflict pertaining to results management authority occurs between a NADO and IF, the IF has authority.

Second, let’s consider the cost. It is more expensive to collect and analyze blood samples than it is urine only. In an event setting, normally only urine will be collected. If blood is to be collected, it is typically done a day or two before the event and analyzed as an "out of competition" test. Samples collected during the in-competition window (typically urine only) are analyzed for wider range of prohibited substances therefore the analysis fee is slightly higher. All in, a standard in-competition (urine only) drug test can cost approximately $600 to $1,200 per sample.

*US based road races have conducted drug testing at their event in 2022

- Houston Marathon
- Boston Marathon
- Pittsburgh Marathon
- BOLDER Boulder
- Peachtree Road Race
- Falmouth Road Race
- Chicago Marathon
- NYC Marathon
- Manchester Road Race
That’s a very short list. *List is according to World Athletics website found here.

Solution: USADA and USATF should work together to fund drug testing at the most competitive road races. According to their 990 which can be found here, USADA receives nearly $12 million from the US Government to fund its testing programs and another $5 million from the USOPC. Commit $250K a year to fund an anti-doping program that would test the top 10 overall female and male finishers at the top 15 races in the US. Additionally, USADA should cover all the legal fees themselves…why should a road race organization pay for USADA to do the job they are given $17 million to do?!

To me the best way to fight doping is to create a special police force that investigate and try to fight the peds traffic from the dealers to the athletes. Is not that hard using wiretapping, monitor those people you need to monitor, in the same way you want to fight a cocaine or any thing else trafficking. So number one to do this you need money , and this money will help this police investigation . In cycling they have always done this. You want to fight doping in Kenya. Ok we have many positive cases there . And so??? I dont care . I want to know who give to who the peds . If in Eldoret you can buy Epo around the market corner How the hell is possible that apart that German tv reportage till now NOBODY has done a serious investigation. Is incredible . Probably is difficult cos we are in Africa , just think to Ethiopia even worse than Kenya. I remember many years ago when from europe they wanted to go to test the athletes . Soldier were outside the track and dont let anybody to enter. So first of all you need the antidoping special police force to be free to act anywhere in the world , if not so , that country is out of any competition. This is the only way because many athletes would be exposed even if they never have been caught positive one time. Remember when police stop the Festina car before the tour de france ??? The car was full of peds. So automatically Festina out of tour de france even if nobody was positive. .
Or when Raimondas Rumsas' wife Edita was detained in 2002 after police found her with a camper van carrying loads of banned drugs after he finished third in the Tour de France.Or when This was the result of police investigations and so on many other cases. .. Where is the investigation in Kenya with hundreds of positive cases in the last few years ... Nothing zero nada is the biggest farce in the sport . Then they go win million of dollars at the big marathons or to do million of dollars contract with nike their business companions.

And those money , some of that money I will take from the antidoping, I mean that we spend a very big sum of money to do test that in a very high percentage doesnt work or just dont find what is supposed to find. Better to use some of that money to investigate how the peds arrive to the athletes. I think in 2022 with all the technology we have is not that hard. I still think that athletes are the victim of this system, if you want to be competitive in a world of dopers you have to do the same things the others do.

1) athletes should have to declare every thing they are taking (every drug prescription) because part of the problem is athletes are taking drugs which enhance performance but are not yet on the banned list (drugs only get put on the banned list once tester become aware they are being taken). This info does not need to be made public, but is to be disclosed to USADA.

2) all past PED user need to be encouraged to come forward (privately if need be) to tell investigators what they took - how they took it - how they beat the system. We need to recruit the past cheaters (like Lance Armstrong, Balco dude, Salazar) to step up and help clean up the sport they helped ruin.

3) all past results of a cheater must be wiped from the record books

4) all past monies made must be recouped.

3 and 4 are to make cheating so painful, those who cross the line will think again if it is worth it.

5) Doctors who are prescribing drugs to athletes who clearly do not meet the medical conditions must be held accountable. Fines, ban from working with future athletes, and if repeated violations - pursue termination of medical license.

6) Athletes need to be better educated on how trainers and coaches manipulate them to take "supplements" that are actually PED's, and how to avoid taking them (by getting these supplements to the testers - so we can actually catch the cheating coaches (ex. - I would like to challenge Galen Rupp to do this with what he takes, you know those supplements Salazar sent him hidden secretly inside books when he was traveling.

If the drug is a drug that is unquestionably for cheating - no chance of cross-contamination i.e. EPO, it is a 10 year ban.

If a manager has 2 or more athletes caught, they are banned from the sport.

Only reduce bans if an athlete provides information of where they got the drugs from AND they sign a affidavit stating this fact.

Every federation should not select anyone who has failed a drugs (when deemed at fault) - for their national team ever again.

Make them give blood samples

I propose that publications like LetsRun shpuld stop making excuses for and funding known doper such as the runner implicated in Burritogate.

This has been a problem for so long that a reasonable solution may not be attainable. WADA and USADA need the cooperation of individual athletes and a multitude of sports organizations all trying to protect their turf. Serious reform will remain elusive because so much profit is at stake. Increased testing costs money and nobody wants to pay for it.

1973 US Senate hearings on drugs in sports:

babel.hathitrust.org

Proper and improper use of drugs by athletes. : Hearings, Ninety-third Congress, first session, pursuant to S. Res. 56, section 12 ... / June 18 and July 12 ... 4.J 89/2:D 84/5.

Proper and improper use of drugs by athletes. : Hearings, Ninety-third Congress, first session, pursuant to S. Res. 56, section 12 ... / June 18 and July 12 ... 4.J 89/2:D 84/5.

Link:babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000...

One major point I want to add - athletes already now get a 4 year ban for a major drug ban. So the penalties are pretty severe. The other sports need to get in alignment I think with track's drug bans.

Going after them for past prize money doesn't seem to be happening but I think for most athletes a 4 year ban is death sentence and yet we still have a lot of cheats. If you're going to be a 13:10 guy without the dope and a 12:50 guy with it the incentive is still the same to cheat especially if your other options are struggling by to put a roof over your head in Kenya.