I will maybe buy the proxy war, but committing an overt act of war would end the "proxy" part of it. It would benefit China and India economically. But we will see, perhaps the US was involved. Seems reckless, as they are already achieving their objective
Huh?
The US benefits from this as it hurts Russia, who it is at war with, and it will now be able to sell more gas and oil to Europe.
Based on some of the responses here and other stuff I'm seeing online from the typical Putin loving anti West types, it could be an act to sow division between Europe and the US. Who would want to do that?
Russia had already shut off flow through that pipeline.
The Baltic Pipeline opened yesterday and more are in work to be created to bypass need for Russian gas.
The damage to Nordstream looks more like a stunt for propaganda then to have any immediate affect on Russia.
I'd also like to point out that months before the Russian invasion, the US had been warning Ukraine, and the world, the Russian troop movements indicated that Russia was going to invade Ukraine. Then of course, Russia invaded Ukraine. The US didn't attack Ukraine, Russia did.
My point is that US intelligence warning another country that something will happen, and then that thing happens, doesn't mean the US did it. It usually means the US had gathered info leading to conclusion it would happen.
I don't know who did it, but I doubt it was the US and I'm more inclined to think Russia did it themselves.
By virtue of the thread being started and dominated by anonymous Russian trolls, it was Russia who did it as a pretext to cutting of natural gas to Europe to fracture NATO while maintaining plausible deniability of overtly cutting off the flow.
By virtue of the thread being started and dominated by anonymous Russian trolls, it was Russia who did it as a pretext to cutting of natural gas to Europe to fracture NATO while maintaining plausible deniability of overtly cutting off the flow.
Why would Russia need a pretext to cut off the gas that American sanctions had already forced Europe into not taking the oil?
The pipeline carrying gas from the Norwegian shelf is central to Poland's plan to diversify away from Russian supplies that began years before the invasion of Ukraine.
By virtue of the thread being started and dominated by anonymous Russian trolls, it was Russia who did it as a pretext to cutting of natural gas to Europe to fracture NATO while maintaining plausible deniability of overtly cutting off the flow.
Why would Russia need a pretext to cut off the gas that American sanctions had already forced Europe into not taking the oil?
Gas and oil are not the same thing. Also, there were no American sanctions that forced Europe to do anything. Finally, try not to lie so much.
It was clearly Russia. Russia previously shut off the flow because their compressors failed and they could not get them up and running without EU dropping trade sanctions to provide replacement compressors. Blowing up the pipeline prevents Russia from being in default for failing to deliver gas because it can invoke the force majeure in the contract over the pipeline getting blown up. This also fits in with RU's strategy of sowing division in the EU over energy prices and the cost of sanctions. RU's only play at this point is to try to hold the line in Donbas by sending tens of thousands of newly mobilized soldiers to slow UA's advance long enough for the political winds to shift behind support for UA as Europe suffers from energy shortages this winter. RU will then try to get a deal where they get to keep as much of Donetsk, Luhansk and Zaporhizhzha Oblasts as they can hold through the winter in exchange for a peace deal that lifts sanctions. By then, the pipelines will be repaired and ready to reopen.
Based on some of the responses here and other stuff I'm seeing online from the typical Putin loving anti West types, it could be an act to sow division between Europe and the US. Who would want to do that?
Comrade Tucker was confidently blaming the US for it last night, based on nothing more than a tweet from a random Polish politician and a vague, 8 month-old Biden quote. I think that tells us all we need to know.
Gee, do you think the United States risked destabilizing the entire Western alliance to score a small victory over Kremlin gas companies? Or do you think the increasingly desperate Russians are trying to make Europeans nervous about their energy security going into the winter, as they have been for months? Hmmm, what a mystery!
100% guarantee it's "environmentalists". They are in a cult and since they can't actually prove what they preach, they often have to make their own "disasters" to push their ideology.
How did they damage it? (I think you are 100% wrong btw).
Yes, I'm sure environmentalists acquired the trained personnel, advanced watercraft, and military-grade weaponry necessary to discreetly drop down to the bottom of the ocean and initiate multiple explosions that had the magnitude equivalent to a small earthquake. Goddam Greenpeace just blew like 10 years of fundraising efforts on this one Top Secret mission!
I don't htink SCUBA gear and a pickaxe cost that much.
Considering the pipeline is 80-110m deep (240ish to 330ish feet). It would take a pretty sophisticated and experienced diver to make sure a descent.
100% guarantee it's "environmentalists". They are in a cult and since they can't actually prove what they preach, they often have to make their own "disasters" to push their ideology.
How did they damage it? (I think you are 100% wrong btw).
I don't know but the original question only gave 2 options, Russians or Environmentalists. I lump environmentalists in with the World Economic Forum / Paris Climate Agreement crowd and it's infinitely more likely they caused the leak than Russians did to their own pipeline and main source of income.
It was clearly Russia. Russia previously shut off the flow because their compressors failed and they could not get them up and running without EU dropping trade sanctions to provide replacement compressors. Blowing up the pipeline prevents Russia from being in default for failing to deliver gas because it can invoke the force majeure in the contract over the pipeline getting blown up. This also fits in with RU's strategy of sowing division in the EU over energy prices and the cost of sanctions. RU's only play at this point is to try to hold the line in Donbas by sending tens of thousands of newly mobilized soldiers to slow UA's advance long enough for the political winds to shift behind support for UA as Europe suffers from energy shortages this winter. RU will then try to get a deal where they get to keep as much of Donetsk, Luhansk and Zaporhizhzha Oblasts as they can hold through the winter in exchange for a peace deal that lifts sanctions. By then, the pipelines will be repaired and ready to reopen.
Honestly, this is the most reasonable explanation. This fits all too well. Putin's card he consistently plays is to sow division.
Look at the US elections. Can't directly attack the US? Make them attack each other!
Ukraine resists your invasion and starts fighting back? Shoot missles into schools, hospitals, and shopping malls and create fear and panic!
Surprised the entire West coalesces behind Ukraine and funds their entire war? Sabotage energy prices to create division among Ukraine's allies!
How do we think Putin has survived as long as he has? He's a bad war general but he's not a bad politician...
Eyes on the prize, everyone! Ukraine MUST defeat Russia in this war or else Russia survives and creates another decades long cold (or hot?) war that we have to worry about which may include an emboldened Chinese govt. If they are defeated now and Putin dies, the world may actually return to a good place for a while.
I read what I consider to be a reasonable take on why it might be Russia and not the US.
In essence, why would the CIA 'warn' Europe that the pipeline might be sabotaged if the US was planning to covertly sabotage the pipeline?
Russia may have done this as an attack on NATO countries without actually attacking NATO countries. They destroyed infrastructure that supplies NATO countries ... but Russia actually owns that infrastructure so no actual foul. Russia sending a message: Wow, look what happened there. I hope you guys don't have any other vulnerable pipelines and such that could also be sabotaged by unknown actors, good luck.
I have no idea what happened. Perhaps it's best to wait. For decades people had all sorts of wild theories about the USS Maine -- either the Spanish sunk it or we blew it up ourselves. We know now that the explosion was almost certainly caused by spontaneous combustion of coal dust.
1) Underwater drones that they demonstrated at the maritime-focused exercise in the Baltic Region— BALTOPS 22— which was held in Bornholm, the Danish island in the Baltic Sea off the south coast of Sweden back in June.
2) According to Flightradar24 data, US Navy Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk helicopter spent hours hovering above the vicinity of the ruptured natural gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea near Bornholm on September 1, 2, and 3.
It is to be noted that first explosion on Nord Stream pipeline was recorded in southeast of Danish island of Bornholm in Baltic Sea where BALTOPS 22 was held.
European security officials on Monday and Tuesday observed Russian Navy support ships in the vicinity of leaks in the Nord Stream pipelines likely caused by underwater explosions, according two Western intelligence officials...
U.S. officials downplayed the potential for immediate impacts from the leaks hobbling the two Nord Stream natural gas lines. But the incidents are adding to worries about winter.
Who could it be? Everything surely points to Russia damaging their own pipes so they can get no money for gas from the EU. Not that they would need money at the moment anyway.
Nobody would even think, that it could be a certain country, who's president stated, that he will find ways to stop Nord Stream if Russia was to invade Ukraine. It definitely can't be this country, wanting to sell more of their LNG to the EU, that would make no sense.
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