I've used L Carnitine for several years, it does help but I found L Arginine much more beneficial in terms of performance and recovery. Both do promote GH secretion, L Arginine more so.
@stan the corgi - thanks for sharing your experience and good insight into L Arginine. I'll look into that.
I'm a cyclist these days, but L-Carnitine plus Beta Alanine is my go to performance and recovery mix. Saw pretty good results after 3 months of continued use (~1.5g carnitine, 2.5-3g beta alanine), dropped a few unnecessary pounds and saw good reduction in recovery between hard effort days.
@Yes and Yes - very interesting. Thanks for sharing your intake values and the results!
@XY, thank you for sharing details of your health. It's very inspiring what you've done! 6'0"/153lbs/8.0% into your 60's is VERY fit and definitely muscular compared to a marathon runner. I am currently 48 and doing marathons. While I am sold on the health benefits of eating more healthy meat, I am not sure yet if I would have the endurance for marathons if I cut back my carbs so much. Clearly, you've shown that, when you eat the way you do, you have the strength and speed for 5K's, 400's, and many other activities like climbing. Thanks for the great food for thought! It's helping me explore the right balance between marathon running vs. not so much distance, but more strength.
While I would consider competing marathons at this stage as negatively affecting most of my current health goals, I must say that when I was in ketosis (zero or low carbs), my long runs easily went from 1.5 to 3+ hours, mostly on trails (about 4-5 years ago). The power of fat-burning is real!
In retrospect I lost my top gear, although I did not neglect speed. Zack Bitter eats low carb around easy mileage and higher carb around faster running, which makes sense. Since I am currently doing more power and speed endurance, 100g/day of fruit seems to keep me in a sweet spot. I do get more soreness/DOMS, but I feel it is because I am able to "dig deeper" into the speed and power work, a worthwhile tradeoff as long as it doesn't linger or lead to injury. I did in fact, pull a hamstring in May, which set me back for a few months but is now 100% recovered, thanks to @kneesovertoesguy-type recovery and mobility work. More learning there which is invaluable going forward.
The bottom line for me: "Keep evolving!". It has served me well in negating most of the effects of aging in the last decade and looking forward to refining things even more and keeping it fun while progressing those things I value. It is amazing how fresh and easy most of my training is now compared to the old days of grinding. I will tip my hat towards Tony Holler and his "Feed The Cats" approach for sprinting which has reinvigorated my interest in speed and elastic power. A very different approach to most distance programs for sure.
Good luck on your journey and never stop learning!
@XY - thanks so much. That's interesting how upping the carbs for faster work can be a good option. Thanks for sharing your journey. It's very interesting. I agree, it's all about continue to learn to find the optimal health, like you've done well.
While I would consider competing marathons at this stage as negatively affecting most of my current health goals, I must say that when I was in ketosis (zero or low carbs), my long runs easily went from 1.5 to 3+ hours, mostly on trails (about 4-5 years ago). The power of fat-burning is real!
Can you explain how this works? We all have fat reserves and my understanding is that the body tends to start burning small amounts of fat within seconds of starting running and continues burning both fat and glycogen, so presumably when glycogen stores are depleted, it’s forced to almost entirely burning fat. In everyone.
Is the explanation that if the body is very used to burning fat for fuel, it smoothly shifts to fat burning and there isn’t a glycogen wall? I don’t think I can do low carb and seem to have a naturally limited appetite preventing me from overeating, but I’m curious how to get the body to use my 13% fat as fuel more and restock muscle glycogen first before fat reserves instead of using both and restocking both at a seemingly inflexible ratios.
@pooey, great question! What percent of your intake is fat? You can limit your fat intake to 20%, so that you are not eating excess fat that is probably contributing to keeping your BF at 13%.
Can you explain how this works? We all have fat reserves and my understanding is that the body tends to start burning small amounts of fat within seconds of starting running and continues burning both fat and glycogen, so presumably when glycogen stores are depleted, it’s forced to almost entirely burning fat. In everyone.
Is the explanation that if the body is very used to burning fat for fuel, it smoothly shifts to fat burning and there isn’t a glycogen wall? I don’t think I can do low carb and seem to have a naturally limited appetite preventing me from overeating, but I’m curious how to get the body to use my 13% fat as fuel more and restock muscle glycogen first before fat reserves instead of using both and restocking both at a seemingly inflexible ratios.
@pooey, great question! What percent of your intake is fat? You can limit your fat intake to 20%, so that you are not eating excess fat that is probably contributing to keeping your BF at 13%.
Thanks, I eat a gm/lb BW of protein contributing around 25% of calories, but don’t track carbs/fat as carefully, but I’m positive that of the remaining 75%, carbs is more than fat, maybe 45/30 or even 50/25, which I say based on the observation that pretty much everything I eat has more protein or more carbs calories than fat calories (with the exception of occasional fatty fish like salmon or beef).
I suppose I could reduce fat more but I already don’t like and avoid oily greasy stuff, and from what I understand, the body tends to store any excess calories as fat reserves any way (as opposed to oral fat contributing to stored fat), so I don’t know if that would help with my desire for recomposition without losing overall weight.
PS: sorry to hijack the primary topic of your thread.
@pooey, great question! What percent of your intake is fat? You can limit your fat intake to 20%, so that you are not eating excess fat that is probably contributing to keeping your BF at 13%.
Thanks, I eat a gm/lb BW of protein contributing around 25% of calories, but don’t track carbs/fat as carefully, but I’m positive that of the remaining 75%, carbs is more than fat, maybe 45/30 or even 50/25, which I say based on the observation that pretty much everything I eat has more protein or more carbs calories than fat calories (with the exception of occasional fatty fish like salmon or beef).
I suppose I could reduce fat more but I already don’t like and avoid oily greasy stuff, and from what I understand, the body tends to store any excess calories as fat reserves any way (as opposed to oral fat contributing to stored fat), so I don’t know if that would help with my desire for recomposition without losing overall weight.
PS: sorry to hijack the primary topic of your thread.
@pooey, I hear you. I am not an expert on this, but when I reduced my fat % from 25% to 20%, my body fat went down from 13% toward 11%. In other words, it seemed as if, practically speaking, the fat that I was eating beyond 20% was not needed and being stored as fat. So, whenever I ate extra beyond my planned diet (on say a harder running day), I made sure that my snacks were 20% fat - I ate virgin olive oil to get the fat part right. Hope that helps. Again, I'm no expert, but this actually worked.
L Cartinine taken in moderate pill dose minimally affects performance.
L Cartinine shipped in carved out books to sponsored athletes contributes to a lifetime ban.
Tee Hee……
Stupid question but is injecting it illegal or classified as banned? Srs have no idea.
On the keto topic, I feel great/mentally sharp on keto - runs feel like complete hell.
@Jamb innnn, can you please elaborate on how keto affects your running? Is it harder to do the longer distances like a marathon and put in higher mileage? Are you able to do speed and threshold work?
Thanks, I eat a gm/lb BW of protein contributing around 25% of calories, but don’t track carbs/fat as carefully, but I’m positive that of the remaining 75%, carbs is more than fat, maybe 45/30 or even 50/25, which I say based on the observation that pretty much everything I eat has more protein or more carbs calories than fat calories (with the exception of occasional fatty fish like salmon or beef).
I suppose I could reduce fat more but I already don’t like and avoid oily greasy stuff, and from what I understand, the body tends to store any excess calories as fat reserves any way (as opposed to oral fat contributing to stored fat), so I don’t know if that would help with my desire for recomposition without losing overall weight.
PS: sorry to hijack the primary topic of your thread.
@pooey, I hear you. I am not an expert on this, but when I reduced my fat % from 25% to 20%, my body fat went down from 13% toward 11%. In other words, it seemed as if, practically speaking, the fat that I was eating beyond 20% was not needed and being stored as fat. So, whenever I ate extra beyond my planned diet (on say a harder running day), I made sure that my snacks were 20% fat - I ate virgin olive oil to get the fat part right. Hope that helps. Again, I'm no expert, but this actually worked.
Cool, good to know, that is encouraging to hear even if anecdotal, thanks. Did you happen to monitor the BF difference through DXA or calipers of what and over what duration? Curious how you were able to monitor small changes precisely.
While I would consider competing marathons at this stage as negatively affecting most of my current health goals, I must say that when I was in ketosis (zero or low carbs), my long runs easily went from 1.5 to 3+ hours, mostly on trails (about 4-5 years ago). The power of fat-burning is real!
Can you explain how this works? We all have fat reserves and my understanding is that the body tends to start burning small amounts of fat within seconds of starting running and continues burning both fat and glycogen, so presumably when glycogen stores are depleted, it’s forced to almost entirely burning fat. In everyone.
Is the explanation that if the body is very used to burning fat for fuel, it smoothly shifts to fat burning and there isn’t a glycogen wall? I don’t think I can do low carb and seem to have a naturally limited appetite preventing me from overeating, but I’m curious how to get the body to use my 13% fat as fuel more and restock muscle glycogen first before fat reserves instead of using both and restocking both at a seemingly inflexible ratios.
Here are the show notes from an interview with Jeff Volek and Zach Bitter about the FASTER study which looked at the difference in fat-burning between low-carb and high-carb athletes, The graph shows the higher % of fat burning at moderate VO2 max which is over twice as high in the LC athletes v. HC athletes. It is possible for higher carb athletes to fat-adapt using strategic fasting was well.
For us as older athletes, the health benefits of lower oxidation and elevated auto-Nagy throughout the day while in ketosis are tremendous, and as I have said, I had many serious concerns, including recurring A-fib (5x electro=cardioversion), sleep apnea, serious pulmonary infections, IBS, etc. which completely vanished under a low-carb/whole food/mostly animal-based diet. It truly was life transformative for me personally, aside from the performance benefits.
Stupid question but is injecting it illegal or classified as banned? Srs have no idea.
On the keto topic, I feel great/mentally sharp on keto - runs feel like complete hell.
@Jamb innnn, can you please elaborate on how keto affects your running? Is it harder to do the longer distances like a marathon and put in higher mileage? Are you able to do speed and threshold work?
Only a data point but I feel like I hit a brick wall doing any type of run. Headaches, dead legs, etc. Never attempted a workout during keto.
Again XY indicates his keto is a sporadic result because of a specific diet, but not necessarily a desired state. When I've done keto, it's to get sharp mentally and lose weight, not become a better runner.
At least half of my workouts are done fasted 13-15 hours so in ketosis, but it doesn't seem to affect the session much either way. This probably because of metabolic flexibility.
Fat is 60+% of my diet, but ZERO fats from plant oils or sources (maybe an avocado now and then). Our physiology is designed to operate with saturated fat of animal origin, hence all of the fat-soluble vitamins and nutrients that you can't get properly get from plants.
The best way to put on damaging visceral body fat is plant oils and refined carbs. Pretty much anything found in the aisles of stores or in restaurants I regard as inedible poison. On whole natural foods I feel always sated and no longer have sugar or junk cravings. It is probably why I don't fluctuate 15 lbs throughout the year anymore or get acne flare-ups. It is pretty darned liberating.
I've used L Carnitine for several years, it does help but I found L Arginine much more beneficial in terms of performance and recovery. Both do promote GH secretion, L Arginine more so.
Can you please elaborated for those of us who know nothing about this but are interested?
How much L Carnitine per day? Liquid drinkable supplement or pill? Cost?
How much L Arginine per day? Liquid drinkable supplement or pill? Cost?
Do you take them together? Or just one or the other?
When you say it improves performance can you give us an example? Times maybe?
Here are the show notes from an interview with Jeff Volek and Zach Bitter about the FASTER study which looked at the difference in fat-burning between low-carb and high-carb athletes, The graph shows the higher % of fat burning at moderate VO2 max which is over twice as high in the LC athletes v. HC athletes. It is possible for higher carb athletes to fat-adapt using strategic fasting was well.
For us as older athletes, the health benefits of lower oxidation and elevated auto-Nagy throughout the day while in ketosis are tremendous, and as I have said, I had many serious concerns, including recurring A-fib (5x electro=cardioversion), sleep apnea, serious pulmonary infections, IBS, etc. which completely vanished under a low-carb/whole food/mostly animal-based diet. It truly was life transformative for me personally, aside from the performance benefits.
Thanks for that link and wow, the personal transformational story sounds amazing indeed! Did your transition significantly increase your triglycerides and/or LDL for a while?
And is there a reason to think that an MCD (moderate carb diet) curve will be in between HCD and LCD in the Volek/Bitter study or is it an all-or-nothing effect that only kicks in at like 10% carbs?
Here are the show notes from an interview with Jeff Volek and Zach Bitter about the FASTER study which looked at the difference in fat-burning between low-carb and high-carb athletes, The graph shows the higher % of fat burning at moderate VO2 max which is over twice as high in the LC athletes v. HC athletes. It is possible for higher carb athletes to fat-adapt using strategic fasting was well.
For us as older athletes, the health benefits of lower oxidation and elevated auto-Nagy throughout the day while in ketosis are tremendous, and as I have said, I had many serious concerns, including recurring A-fib (5x electro=cardioversion), sleep apnea, serious pulmonary infections, IBS, etc. which completely vanished under a low-carb/whole food/mostly animal-based diet. It truly was life transformative for me personally, aside from the performance benefits.
Thanks for that link and wow, the personal transformational story sounds amazing indeed! Did your transition significantly increase your triglycerides and/or LDL for a while?
And is there a reason to think that an MCD (moderate carb diet) curve will be in between HCD and LCD in the Volek/Bitter study or is it an all-or-nothing effect that only kicks in at like 10% carbs?
I don't track those markers but given hundreds of case studies of those who do and eat along similar lines, I am quite certain that HDL is up, Trigs are down, and LDL is steady or up. I don't subscribe to the red herrings of lipidology, I respect my body and it's performance, including hormonally immunologically, and I have ways to track those.
To move the needle moderately on fat-burning, running fasted or low carb beforehand is probably the most efficient move without full LCHFD.
I’ve heard so many ultra runner proponents of keto quote the video on YouTube of Tim Olson and his keto diet. Tim Olson wrecked his longevity by doing keto. His PCT FKT was an awesome comeback but his prime was cut short. Bet vice won’t update that video on YouTube with that info. Runners need carbs plain and simple, ask him about that
The best way to put on damaging visceral body fat is plant oils and refined carbs. Pretty much anything found in the aisles of stores or in restaurants I regard as inedible poison. On whole natural foods I feel always sated and no longer have sugar or junk cravings. It is probably why I don't fluctuate 15 lbs throughout the year anymore or get acne flare-ups. It is pretty darned liberating.
Agree with this, The calories in calories out model a lot of people have is so flawed. Eat 1000 calories of real food vs 1000 calories of alcohol and see how your body changes. What you eat matters - evidence is coming out that seed oils are especially harmful for many things health wise
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