I wanted to talk about the Houlihan case. When the news broke about Shelby’s suspension broke, you wrote a pretty strong, impassioned defense of her on Instagram. Do you still stand by that?
I do.
You wrote at the time, “I’d like to think that the way BTC and its members have conducted themselves over the years has earned us the respect of our peers, the benefit of the doubt.” In my experience on social media and on our messageboards, and talking to people in person at meets, I’d say the majority of people – maybe the significant majority – don’t believe her. They think she cheated. Has that been your experience? And have you been surprised at all in the way the public reaction has reacted to this case?
I think that if something like that were happen to me, I would honestly be suicidal.
-Chris Derrick Talking about the Shelby Houlihan Doping Positive
I’ve generally tried to avoid reading about [it], which maybe makes me not a particularly good teammate. I just find it extremely hard to hear people say those things. And I don’t blame anyone for saying it because I’m sure I would think the same thing and in that sense, I’m not surprised. I used to read LetsRun, I know how people think, and I certainly know how it looks and how I would think if I didn’t know her and I can’t blame anyone for that. I really do strongly believe in her and I absolutely believe in the team and Jerry and their integrity. I just find it very, very hard to think about. I think that if something like that were happen to me, I would honestly be suicidal.
I think one of the things that I carried with me when I was really struggling with running is that idea – which seems pretty naive, I guess – that the choices, in terms of how I carry myself and doing things the right way, that at least, would last. That people would know that. And I guess her whole situation has made me think that’s all extremely tenuous and you actually don’t control what anyone thinks about you. Obviously, you can’t control whether people think you’re good or not, but also if you’re honest or anything like that.
Part of the problem too is I’ve read the internet too much. I know how people think and argue and I can’t even tell them that they’re wrong all the time. I can’t be like, “Sometimes you’re right and sometimes you’re wrong and this time I think you’re wrong.” That’s not convincing. You want totalizing answers. And I know that I’ve heard stuff from behind the scenes from some people in power who I think have a lot of legitimacy that would have privy information that they think that she is innocent and I wish that some of those people would speak more loudly. But it’s not for me to say.
I can’t blame anyone for thinking what they think. The world kind of sucks sometimes so I’m not going to tell you that it’s all roses and rainbows. It just makes me extremely, extremely sad.
Chris Derrick sounds ridiculous. A Stanford education and that is the result? A man who has such limited analytical powers that he comes across as someone who cannot reason with lucidity. You would be suicidal? What a foolish thing to say. Why would you be suicidal? This guy makes no sense. He is either extraordinarily naive or he is playing dumb.
I think one of the things that I carried with me when I was really struggling with running is that idea – which seems pretty naive, I guess – that the choices, in terms of how I carry myself and doing things the right way, that at least, would last. That people would know that. And I guess her whole situation has made me think that’s all extremely tenuous and you actually don’t control what anyone thinks about you. Obviously, you can’t control whether people think you’re good or not, but also if you’re honest or anything like that.
If it's any consolation to Chris Derrick, the fact that he's still on Houlihan's side is pretty much the only reason why I think there's a teeny, tiny chance that she could be innocent.
I think one of the things that I carried with me when I was really struggling with running is that idea – which seems pretty naive, I guess – that the choices, in terms of how I carry myself and doing things the right way, that at least, would last. That people would know that. And I guess her whole situation has made me think that’s all extremely tenuous and you actually don’t control what anyone thinks about you. Obviously, you can’t control whether people think you’re good or not, but also if you’re honest or anything like that.
If it's any consolation to Chris Derrick, the fact that he's still on Houlihan's side is pretty much the only reason why I think there's a teeny, tiny chance that she could be innocent.
But like, he also is kind of talking around what he's really saying: "I believe Shelby is innocent based on how I think of her and Jerry as people. I didn't believe the results of the investigations, because the people being investigated told me otherwise."
That's not an intellectual argument at all. Then he's like "damn it sucks, people hear that a NGB investigation concluded someone was guilty, and that's that. They don't even give Shelby the benefit of the doubt even though she has always carried herself so well." Again, that's just emotional. "Waaah I wish more people would believe my friend's unprovable claims, rather than an analysis of her urine and a follow-up debunking of her excuse! Waah!"
People can be deceived by people they know really well. It happens all the time. Humans are very good at hiding their sins. Derricks opinion of her matters little compared to a positive test.
Portland with its less than ideal weather along with a climate of radical and false ideoligies are not condusive to a good training environment in my opinion.
Tell me about it. If Portland wasn't such a bad place to be based near, Mo Farah would've won twice as many gold medals, Grant Fisher and Mo Ahmed would be the two fastest 10,000 runners of all time, Karissa Schweitzer would be sub 14 in the 5k instead of just the14:20s. I reckon Galen Rupp would be at least a five time world champ too.
When someone makes the stupidest things political, it’s really already emotional and you won’t be able to use logic.
Solinsky 12:55
Teg 12:58
Centro Oly champ
Brazier world champ
woody 12:58
lomong
sifan Hassan
All squandered their careers by training in a liberal city
If it's any consolation to Chris Derrick, the fact that he's still on Houlihan's side is pretty much the only reason why I think there's a teeny, tiny chance that she could be innocent.
But like, he also is kind of talking around what he's really saying: "I believe Shelby is innocent based on how I think of her and Jerry as people. I didn't believe the results of the investigations, because the people being investigated told me otherwise."
That's not an intellectual argument at all. Then he's like "damn it sucks, people hear that a NGB investigation concluded someone was guilty, and that's that. They don't even give Shelby the benefit of the doubt even though she has always carried herself so well." Again, that's just emotional. "Waaah I wish more people would believe my friend's unprovable claims, rather than an analysis of her urine and a follow-up debunking of her excuse! Waah!"
hmm. at the end of the day, as a now-retired pro, his only remnant of that era is his relationship to jerry, btc and his fellow athletes there. so, what does it cost him to say "I believe her over any evidence"? nothing. but, it gains him the respect of the people he values. this is a no brainer. it's not an intellectual argument at all.
People can be deceived by people they know really well. It happens all the time. Humans are very good at hiding their sins. Derricks opinion of her matters little compared to a positive test.
Your post is sad but true. That's why there is an expression that goes back thousands of years. Something about "Getting the the wool pulled over your eyes." I'm not quite sure who is doing the wool pulling here though. S.H. or C.D? I don't know C.D. nor have we ever meet. But I've followed his career since H.S. I'd be surprised if he'd knowingly would have nice things to say about a drug cheater if he believed the tests are valid and true.
- Running 13:55 at Arcadia. I wasn't there and watched on video, but you could tell the crowd was going absolutely bananas during the race. I think this is the race that really gave Arcadia a reputation as THE place to run fast. It's no coincidence that 2 years later there was a record set for most sub-9's in a single race
Arcadia was fast for many years before that, and why Derrick targeted it for a 5km attempt.
Solinsky ran under 8:50 there as a junior, Webb vs Hall vs Jeffersons in 2000, the list goes on.
But like, he also is kind of talking around what he's really saying: "I believe Shelby is innocent based on how I think of her and Jerry as people. I didn't believe the results of the investigations, because the people being investigated told me otherwise."
That's not an intellectual argument at all. Then he's like "damn it sucks, people hear that a NGB investigation concluded someone was guilty, and that's that. They don't even give Shelby the benefit of the doubt even though she has always carried herself so well." Again, that's just emotional. "Waaah I wish more people would believe my friend's unprovable claims, rather than an analysis of her urine and a follow-up debunking of her excuse! Waah!"
100% correct. Typical Stanford "we're better than you" attitude.
- Running 13:55 at Arcadia. I wasn't there and watched on video, but you could tell the crowd was going absolutely bananas during the race. I think this is the race that really gave Arcadia a reputation as THE place to run fast. It's no coincidence that 2 years later there was a record set for most sub-9's in a single race
Arcadia was fast for many years before that, and why Derrick targeted it for a 5km attempt.
Solinsky ran under 8:50 there as a junior, Webb vs Hall vs Jeffersons in 2000, the list goes on.
I've received a lot of responses on this point so perhaps I'm overstating the impact. There have always been some fast times that have been run at Arcadia.
However the depth was nowhere near what it became. Look at it this way - there was only one year from 1999-2009 with more than 8 sub-9's. From 2010 to now the fewest there have been in any year is 10. Here are the results by year:
What's weird is the year immediately after him (2009) had only 3. That was a stacked field, so I suspect something affected it like the race getting out slow.
But like, he also is kind of talking around what he's really saying: "I believe Shelby is innocent based on how I think of her and Jerry as people. I didn't believe the results of the investigations, because the people being investigated told me otherwise."
That's not an intellectual argument at all. Then he's like "damn it sucks, people hear that a NGB investigation concluded someone was guilty, and that's that. They don't even give Shelby the benefit of the doubt even though she has always carried herself so well." Again, that's just emotional. "Waaah I wish more people would believe my friend's unprovable claims, rather than an analysis of her urine and a follow-up debunking of her excuse! Waah!"
People on these boards just continuing to project whatever it is they want to hear about the Shelby thing onto everybody associated with the BTC is ridiculous. You think Chris Derrick owes you a nuanced "intellectual argument"? He does not. He's just answering a question. You're the one with a bizarre emotional fixation, not him. She's banned. It's over, so stop whining about it.
Like others have said in this thread, Chris's presence in that group has always been a big factor in my thinking that there's not some BTC-wide doping ring and Shelby was doing her own thing. Some will say wishful thinking I know, but I'm around his age and have always looked up to him. Just a crazy tough racer who seemed to always treat everyone with the utmost respect.
People on these boards just continuing to project whatever it is they want to hear about the Shelby thing onto everybody associated with the BTC is ridiculous. You think Chris Derrick owes you a nuanced "intellectual argument"? He does not. He's just answering a question. You're the one with a bizarre emotional fixation, not him. She's banned. It's over, so stop whining about it.
Like others have said in this thread, Chris's presence in that group has always been a big factor in my thinking that there's not some BTC-wide doping ring and Shelby was doing her own thing. Some will say wishful thinking I know, but I'm around his age and have always looked up to him. Just a crazy tough racer who seemed to always treat everyone with the utmost respect.
I'm not projecting, I'm literally analyzing his statement. I never said he owed me an intellectual argument. I just said he didn't present one.
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Promoting Excellence in Running, Integrity of Character, Clarity of Mind, Sublime Humor.
Quite a few people don’t understand the nuance of humor. I suspect Chris must laugh at all the lefty lunatics in Portland, although I doubt he’s a Trump supporter. The main reason there have been athletes that have done well based in Portland is not the climate, but because of the NIKE money machine. BTC spent long training stints in Park City and other altitude locations.
Some will say wishful thinking I know, but I'm around his age and have always looked up to him. Just a crazy tough racer who seemed to always treat everyone with the utmost respect.
haha it's fitting that when you step up to blindly defend chris' blind defense of shelby, you present a similar argument as chris. "I look up to and respect this person." I would have said the same thing about brett favre lol. Turns out athletes are just people
I have it on good word that the Arcadia course is short.
That seems like a more straightforward explanation for a bunch of people running fast at a certain venue. Rather than it having some magical prestigious aura that was "kicked off" by someone else running fast there. I mean psychology always plays a role in racing, but it seems obvious that there are physical properties of the venue that make it faster. Since we're all about standardizing distances and conditions so we can compare people across venues, that sucks.
What in gods name are you blabbing on about? Arcadia is fast because the best 3,200 runners in the country all meet up in 75 degree weather at night and try to run 8:40. Same thing for the Monaco 1500m with the pros, there is no secret.
That seems like a more straightforward explanation for a bunch of people running fast at a certain venue. Rather than it having some magical prestigious aura that was "kicked off" by someone else running fast there. I mean psychology always plays a role in racing, but it seems obvious that there are physical properties of the venue that make it faster. Since we're all about standardizing distances and conditions so we can compare people across venues, that sucks.
What in gods name are you blabbing on about? Arcadia is fast because the best 3,200 runners in the country all meet up in 75 degree weather at night and try to run 8:40. Same thing for the Monaco 1500m with the pros, there is no secret.
oh ok I thought we were speculating about some magical property of the place that made people run faster than they would at other meets