Norway has ONE top distance runner. One. How does this make their training special?
Before Jakob, Henrik was pretty good but never great. Fredegar had flashes of potential great but faded fast. Moen is very good but not top tier.
Just shows your ignorance.
Isnt the fastest non african born maraton (faster than any american past ans present) of all time counting as a top distance runner? Isnt Filips bronse in wc a top maraton runner? Didnt you know about him? Isnt Gravdal 8th place, best non african, in WC a top result? What about Sindre Buraas 13:11.96? Have you seen the revolution in triatlon?
How much more can you expect from a country with 5.5 million inhabitants where football and winter sports are extremely more popular than track?
Norway has ONE top distance runner. One. How does this make their training special?
Before Jakob, Henrik was pretty good but never great. Fredegar had flashes of potential great but faded fast. Moen is very good but not top tier.
Just shows your ignorance.
Isnt the fastest non african born maraton (faster than any american past ans present) of all time counting as a top distance runner? Isnt Filips bronse in wc a top maraton runner? Didnt you know about him? Isnt Gravdal 8th place, best non african, in WC a top result? What about Sindre Buraas 13:11.96? Have you seen the revolution in triatlon?
How much more can you expect from a country with 5.5 million inhabitants where football and winter sports are extremely more popular than track?
Just shows your ignorance.
Moen is not the fastest non-African born marathon runner. Not even second. Or third. Try fifth.
I appreciate the responses in this thread; not only this quoted one but all of them. Makes for great discussion.
I am going to ask a pragmatic question here: I know much of this is paced on actual, real-time blood testing to dial in the pace/effort. I get pacing-to-lactate levels will vary across not only athletes, but also within an individual athlete across various sessions/efforts/conditions (heat, accumulated fatigue). But let's try to best match a pace as an analogue to these lactate mmol levels, and let's pick a 15:00 5km athlete as an example. His or her Daniel's T pace is 5:14. The Tinman Threshold and CV pace ranges are 5:23 - 5:15 and 5:08 - 5:01. I *think* Pfitzinger would also have around a 5:15 LT pace (but I don't have his books in front of me).
Roughly what would we think the Norwegian training pace would be for this athlete compared to those training paces from other author's training plan. I'm having a hard time thinking of what effort and pace that may roughly equate to compared to other training efforts.
I think it would be easier just to tell you what pace JI runs for his workouts and then you can calculate your own paces from that.
His lab tested threshold is 21.5 km/h which is 2:47 per km. This is the one hour race pace. To find your own, consider what pace you could run for a one hour race. Then convert that to speed in km/h.
His program is:
Monday: 40 min easy + 40 min easy 15.5-17.0 km/h. This it threshold pace minus 4.5-6 km/h. They try to stay around 70% of max hr and do not exceed 75% of max hr.
Tuesday: AM 5x6 minutes with 1 min rest at 20.5 km/h (threshold pace minus 1 km/h). PM 20x400m with 30 seconds rest starting at 22.0, most run at 22.5, finishing at 23.0 km/h if feeling good (threshold plus 1 km/h).
Wednesday: same as Monday.
Thursday: AM same as Tuesday. PM: 10x3 minutes with 1 min rest (can be 8 if feeling bad or 12 if feeling great. Sometimes run as k repeats on the track) run at lab tested lactate threshold speed of 21.5 km/h or 2:47 per km.
Friday: same as Wednesday
Saturday: 2 sets of 10x200m run uphill at a grade of 5-8%. Jog back down. 3-5 min rest between sets. The first set is a lactate value of 6-8 mmol. The second set is 8 mmol and can get up to 10 or even 12 at the end. 10-12 mmol feels like a 5k race.
Sunday: 80 minutes easy
They also do weights and fast strides on Monday and Wednesday. This is a simple but effective program that Gjert Ingebrigtsen received from Marius Bakken and hasn’t really been changed since Marius created it in 2006
This seems great and sounds accurate. Where has it come from though? I'm also interested to know how this training is progressed, seeing as improving the pace would change the lactate levels. Is the volume of the sessions simply increased?
Does anyone know how this would change leading up to big races?
I've read about some big 1500m-sessions from Jakob, but does anyone know how they structure this within their training week? Do they replace a threshold day with one session at race speed?
Isnt the fastest non african born maraton (faster than any american past ans present) of all time counting as a top distance runner? Isnt Filips bronse in wc a top maraton runner? Didnt you know about him? Isnt Gravdal 8th place, best non african, in WC a top result? What about Sindre Buraas 13:11.96? Have you seen the revolution in triatlon?
How much more can you expect from a country with 5.5 million inhabitants where football and winter sports are extremely more popular than track?
Just shows your ignorance.
Moen is not the fastest non-African born marathon runner. Not even second. Or third. Try fifth.
Since he became the first non african at 2:05:xx in a legal course two japanese had run faster. He sucks. Obviously horrible results for Norway.
Does anyone know how this would change leading up to big races?
I've read about some big 1500m-sessions from Jakob, but does anyone know how they structure this within their training week? Do they replace a threshold day with one session at race speed?
They don't do double thresholds every week. When aproaching track and frequent racing there is less threshold days but they often finish after a track race with e.g 10 x 600m threshold, so threshold work is always present in their schedule.
Moen is not the fastest non-African born marathon runner. Not even second. Or third. Try fifth.
Since he became the first non african at 2:05:xx in a legal course two japanese had run faster. He sucks. Obviously horrible results for Norway.
Obviously you can't read. Where did I say anything about it being a horrible result by Moen? Where did I say he sucks? Where did I say those are horrible results for Norway?
Does your Norwegian arrogance make it impossible for you to just accept that you were wrong, that I corrected you, and that's it?
And the moron Wigins is right (for once). In track, Norway has only one world class distance runner at the moment.
No clue if this helps but I test my athletes occasionally, and though it definitely varies I have found that the faster end of the Tinman "tempo" pace (faster end, even reaching into the space towards the "threshold" pace) typically ends up with them at the 2.5-3.5mmol range for efforts of 6-15 minutes.
Tinman tempo is 90%CV and Tinman threshold is 95%CV which is about TH60. So your lactate levels make a lot of sense to me.
The Ingebrigtsen however, seems to do there 5*6min at 90%CV and 10x3min at 95%CV based on information @supersikesposter provided. So they do shorter intervals compared to your training whichs sounds better to me.
Since he became the first non african at 2:05:xx in a legal course two japanese had run faster. He sucks. Obviously horrible results for Norway.
Obviously you can't read. Where did I say anything about it being a horrible result by Moen? Where did I say he sucks? Where did I say those are horrible results for Norway?
Does your Norwegian arrogance make it impossible for you to just accept that you were wrong, that I corrected you, and that's it?
And the moron Wigins is right (for once). In track, Norway has only one world class distance runner at the moment.
You said there was 5 that is wrong. Show your receipts. And my sarkasm was to show that does it really matter? My point was that he is a world class distance runner as there is (almost) noone outside africa even close.
I would also wager that a 8th in 5000 womens is also world class. Maybe that is just a hobby jogger?
Ps: dont make sweeping statements about peoples personality based on their nationality.
The inghebrightsens are just one of MANY endurance athletes DOMINATING at the world stage. Yes, in the running world Jakob stands alone as top tier runner, but look into the triathlon world and you will find the Norwegians are certainly doing something different to achieve such outlandish success for such a small country. They had gold medal winner for mens triathlon at the Olympics and other athletes setting records in everything from the Olympic distance to Ironman triathlon.
The question remains: How do they structure these weeks in the sharpening phase?
I'm curious to what degree they drop mileage, how many threshold sessions remain, etc. I feel that we have detailed information about their base training weeks, but little is written about the sharpening phase..
The question remains: How do they structure these weeks in the sharpening phase?
I'm curious to what degree they drop mileage, how many threshold sessions remain, etc. I feel that we have detailed information about their base training weeks, but little is written about the sharpening phase..
I think this is an accurate assessement, and something that the Ingebrigtsens at least holds secret. Fyi people can follow the non pro Ingebrigtsen brother on strava as he is in Switzerland and trains with the rest on their altitude camp for europeans. Fwiw he holds the family record in HM (1.15).
Thanks for everyone chiming in and giving more context. It seems like the big takeaway is that there is still a lot more to learn and understand the real physiological benefits of this threshold focused training LONG TERM, not just over 6-12 weeks or whatever the typical “experiment” has as its study protocol.
I think the thing I am personally most interested in learning more about as an admittedly ignorant hobby jogger and fan with no scientific background is if this does in fact in the long term improve one’s vo2 max. If you look at these Norwegian athletes (including the to athletes and what their coach has said in interviews), they have all developed 85-90 vo2 max and say this high volume of threshold work can continue to develop one’s aerobic capacity and vo2 max.
Does anyone with more expertise have an idea on if this is one, possible, and two, how threshold works would improve vo2 max over long haul. To me, this is the most interesting question in exercise physiology for endurance sports because the generally accepted idea is that vo2 is all genetic and can only be improved in the short term. There’s studies indicating otherwise though (famous Hickson study from way back, will track down…) and anectdotal evidence from long term athlete profiles showing that it’s possible to improve long term. The question is what is best way to do it.
Here is the RC Hickson study from 1977. He showed that as the title reads, “Linear increase in aerobic power induced by a strenuous program of endurance exercise”. This continued to occur and apparently the subjects who continued with this protocol continued to see linear improvements after the 10 weeks.
The protocol was intense though and so most stopped. They basically did 6 x 5 minutes at best effort three times per week. Intense for sure and definitely not threshold training:
Eight subjects exercised for 40 min/day, 6 days/wk for 10 wk. For 3 days/wk they performed six 5-min intervals of bicycling on an ergometer against a resistance that elicited VO2 max, separated by 2-min intervals of exercise...
Thank you for your own thoughts and philosophy here… I wanted to ask a follow up to what you’d outlined as best approach for the next 12:30 5k world record, theoretical athletes schedule. Interesting approach you’d outlined and while a bit against the grain also can see sense behind it…
1) Are you saying that the athlete would just train 6 sessions per week, total? Would this be the vo2 workout, threshold workout, and then the steady runs at 5:40 pace would be all four remaining sessions? No truly easy recovery runs?
2) What about speed/anaerobic workouts? Do you advocate anything faster than the 20 x 400m session at vo2 intensity?
3) What is the value of the steady runs? 5:40 pace is certainly quick for us mere mortals but for someone who could run at 60 sec/400m it’s still quite easy and would seem to be more in the “grey zone” of training— not hard enough for true adaptations but too hard for recovery.
Thank you for your own thoughts and philosophy here… I wanted to ask a follow up to what you’d outlined as best approach for the next 12:30 5k world record, theoretical athletes schedule. Interesting approach you’d outlined and while a bit against the grain also can see sense behind it…
1) Are you saying that the athlete would just train 6 sessions per week, total? Would this be the vo2 workout, threshold workout, and then the steady runs at 5:40 pace would be all four remaining sessions? No truly easy recovery runs?
2) What about speed/anaerobic workouts? Do you advocate anything faster than the 20 x 400m session at vo2 intensity?
3) What is the value of the steady runs? 5:40 pace is certainly quick for us mere mortals but for someone who could run at 60 sec/400m it’s still quite easy and would seem to be more in the “grey zone” of training— not hard enough for true adaptations but too hard for recovery.
Thanks for everyone chiming in and giving more context. It seems like the big takeaway is that there is still a lot more to learn and understand the real physiological benefits of this threshold focused training LONG TERM, not just over 6-12 weeks or whatever the typical “experiment” has as its study protocol.
I think the thing I am personally most interested in learning more about as an admittedly ignorant hobby jogger and fan with no scientific background is if this does in fact in the long term improve one’s vo2 max. If you look at these Norwegian athletes (including the to athletes and what their coach has said in interviews), they have all developed 85-90 vo2 max and say this high volume of threshold work can continue to develop one’s aerobic capacity and vo2 max.
Does anyone with more expertise have an idea on if this is one, possible, and two, how threshold works would improve vo2 max over long haul. To me, this is the most interesting question in exercise physiology for endurance sports because the generally accepted idea is that vo2 is all genetic and can only be improved in the short term. There’s studies indicating otherwise though (famous Hickson study from way back, will track down…) and anectdotal evidence from long term athlete profiles showing that it’s possible to improve long term. The question is what is best way to do it.
I mean, the physiological benefits of threshold training is the same as any other aerobic stimulus. Increased mitochondrial density and size, increased left ventricular chamber size, increased CO and increased stored ATP/glycogen storages.
If I remember correctly, the thought is you reach/are barely below LT which is enough to break homeostasis and cause an adaptive response. They can do a large volume of it week in and week out (which they claim you can't do with traditional training).
I am not familiar with the claim that VO2 can only be improved in short term. Though I'd agree your true VO2max is genetic (your body has a limit) an untrained individual can improve their VO2max. Example: untrained person is tested and has VO2max of 45, person trains, is tested again and it goes up to 50. However their genetic potential/upper limit is 55.
I also think VO2max is rubbish. Just some number that doesn't mean anything. Honestly, who cares what your VO2 is?
The question remains: How do they structure these weeks in the sharpening phase?
I'm curious to what degree they drop mileage, how many threshold sessions remain, etc. I feel that we have detailed information about their base training weeks, but little is written about the sharpening phase..
They have two periods. One is the threshold base phase discussed earlier that they use all through winter and spring, same program every week.
Then, 8 weeks before a peak, they change the program to include more anaerobic workouts. The goal is to make the anaerobic engine as strong as possible for the middle distance races while sacrificing the threshold as little as possible. Again, the Ingebrigtsens got this from Marius Bakken. The closest you will get to seeing their program is the page titled Erfaringsbasert in this pdf https://innovasjonskonferansenirogaland.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/gjert-ingebrigtsen.pdf
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