Zapotes, why bother, he has no idea, no historical perspective and is clueless, just like understanding what the 3 pointer does to scoring averages when they take 75-80 a game, or why Passing % is up in Pro Football when teams now throw 8 yard slants
You lack intelligence. Point blank. You don’t understand that Thom Hunt running 4:02 has NOTHING to do with this subject UNLESS you want to make the point that he might have broken 4 in the new shoes.
And for the uniformed, Thom Hunt ran 4:02.7 on 160 boards at Sunkist almost 50 years ago. Guys should be better.
You say “guys should be better.” Why? Other than the shoes please tell me why they should be better. Faster tracks today? Sure. Why else should they be better? What secret do the guys have now that would make them better now? The internet? Please explain.
People are just better now, and better trained. There has been major improvement at the high school level for over a decade. Want proof, the Letsrun brass has already shown it to us:
All of the HS girls top mile times/1500 conversions are from the last 10 years, but only 2 are since the invention of "super shoes". If the shoes were such a massive difference, wouldn't it be the other way around?
Anyone who has run in the Dragonfly, MD-X, or similar shoe knows that the shoes make a difference.
Those of you who argue the shoes make no difference are wrong, have never worn the shoes, or are simply in denial. It’s not massive, but they immediately give me 0.5s /lap, right out the box. Add to the training benefit they provide by “saving” my legs during hard efforts (fast stuff in the dragonfly, longer reps in the 4%, road races in the Next%) and the benefit is likely even greater.
These kids also have TOP notch training and an awesome, competitive racing scene these days. It all adds up to fast times.
But the shoes are 100% a factor from 800-10k. This is not a debate. The only debate is: “how much?”
Boys 2-mile (plus conversions) is more of the same. There is a small outlier in there, and it's the greatest HS team ever. Other than that, why isn't the list dominated by "super shoes"?
Combined 3000/3200/2M list (expressed as 2M): 8:29.46 *Verzbicas’ 2011 8:34.40 Fernandez 2008 8:35.13i+ N. Young 2020 8:35.23i+ *L. Young 2022 8:36.30+ Sahlman 2022 8:36.3 Nelson 1979 8:37.68i+ Hunter 2016 8:39.04 Kessler 2021 8:39.15i Cheserek’ 2013 8:39.40+ Hasty 2018
But the shoes are 100% a factor from 800-10k. This is not a debate. The only debate is: “how much?”
I absolutely agree that the shoes help, just not to the degree some people think. I'm in the 1-2 seconds range for 1-mile. I also believe that shoes aid in recovery.
My point with posting all the data is that HS kids have been getting better for YEARS! That forces everyone else to get better in order to be competitive, which has made the college athletes better.
However, to me, the most important factor has been that EVERYONE travels all over the country several times a year to run in time trials. Up until about 2010 or so, the only places to run fast were at Mt. Sac or Stanford...and that's where everybody raced. Most of the top times in the country this year for collegians, were run a meets that didn't exist 10-years ago.
Now at least 4 sub 4 minute milers in HS. It is the shoes. Hello….
It’s not the shoes folks. Couple years back, you could say the same for the cutoff of 4:02, and for 4:07 a few more years back, and so on with the round number 4 just being a natural slow progression over the last couple decades, but it’s not special and largely not the result of something that happened in the last 5 years.
But the shoes are 100% a factor from 800-10k. This is not a debate. The only debate is: “how much?”
I absolutely agree that the shoes help, just not to the degree some people think. I'm in the 1-2 seconds range for 1-mile. I also believe that shoes aid in recovery.
My point with posting all the data is that HS kids have been getting better for YEARS! That forces everyone else to get better in order to be competitive, which has made the college athletes better.
However, to me, the most important factor has been that EVERYONE travels all over the country several times a year to run in time trials. Up until about 2010 or so, the only places to run fast were at Mt. Sac or Stanford...and that's where everybody raced. Most of the top times in the country this year for collegians, were run a meets that didn't exist 10-years ago.
Totally agree with this, my guess is 1 sec for a mile, 3-5 seconds over 5,000m, and 8-10 over 10,000m with the impact getting bigger the higher the distance. Pro depth charts have largely remained the same at 1500m, if it was actually 4-5 seconds like some people claim the WR should be under threat by the dozen or so guys that can run 3:31 annually. I also dont see any evidence they make an impact at 800m at all.
The BU meets indoors have gotten so crazy, it used to be just teams in the Northeast and now you have NAU/BYU flying in multiple times to chase times. There used to be 1-2 heats paced for Sub 4, now you have 8-9 heats getting taken through 800 Sub 2.
I genuinely think it’s probably about 2 seconds. If you look at the overall high school rankings, a 4:10 mile in 2018 ranks similarly to a 4:08 now. The 800 was less effected, a 1:52.00 in 2018 is ranking like a 1:51.5. I still believe Martin, and Salhman, and Rheinhart would’ve gone sub 4. Rheinhart ran 4:01 in those adidas avanti spikes in 2019.
Looking at high school data is not a good barometer because kids at the HS level are so far away from their potential. Kids can simply train closer to college-style training or pro-style training and get improvement. There will always be too many variables to isolate.
Looking at pro runners is a much better metric — and the only metric — to use. If the entire professional 1500m shifted down by 2 seconds, then we would be able to see obvious data. But instead, the 10th place male in the world each year since the super shoes has come out has been about the same as before.
So, unless they only work on college and high school kids, it can’t be the shoes.
Side note: Nike is good at this. When Nike came out with “it’s gotta be the shoes” campaign in the late 1980s, they took 20% additional market share in the basketball space.
”Super shoes” is just “it’s gotta be the shoes” 2.0.
Placebo effect. All it takes is one to do it and everyone else will follow. This happened when breaking 4 in the mile and 13 in the 5K. High schoolers are believing the shoes are helping them and are actually running faster.
I honestly do not care one bit about the shoes anymore. Dwelling on the subject is the most boring thing in the world. Everyone has the same access to the shoes and fast mondo tracks or whatever. We need to move on. It's a different era. Better athletes and better technology with more access to world class training knowledge at a young age are going to produce fast times. Get over it. All the ships have sailed. I subscribe to the notion American high school distance running is in a revolutionary golden age right now and I love it.
Boys 2-mile (plus conversions) is more of the same. There is a small outlier in there, and it's the greatest HS team ever. Other than that, why isn't the list dominated by "super shoes"?
Combined 3000/3200/2M list (expressed as 2M): 8:29.46 *Verzbicas’ 2011 8:34.40 Fernandez 2008 8:35.13i+ N. Young 2020 8:35.23i+ *L. Young 2022 8:36.30+ Sahlman 2022 8:36.3 Nelson 1979 8:37.68i+ Hunter 2016 8:39.04 Kessler 2021 8:39.15i Cheserek’ 2013 8:39.40+ Hasty 2018
I love this list, because it shows how technology has progressed along with the super-shoes. I watched the Verzbicas and Fernandez races as long-past historical races on youtube. Nico Young's I saw sometime that same week. Kessler's I saw the next day. L. Young and Sahlman were probably streamed live.
Not to say that livestreaming makes you run faster, but every high schooler who has a good race gets it posted online and their rivals see it and learn what they have to beat to achieve their goals. Everybody improves when everybody knows what level they need to get to.
People are just better now, and better trained. There has been major improvement at the high school level for over a decade. Want proof, the Letsrun brass has already shown it to us:
All of the HS girls top mile times/1500 conversions are from the last 10 years, but only 2 are since the invention of "super shoes". If the shoes were such a massive difference, wouldn't it be the other way around?
yes. not everybody is better trained, but WAY MORE people are better trained.
every coach who is around 40 and younger has grown up with unlimited information at their fingertips, and they know how to find that info. Most of the oldsters who are still kicking, that dominated coaching during the 90s and 00s grew up under the mantra of long slow runs make long slow runners.
If kids in the 60s on cinders were running sub 4, is it crazy that 60 years later we have more kids running it
all of us complained about being behind Kenya and Ethiopia, this is how we catch up. But all people wanna do is crap on the kids for getting fast and raising the bar. We woudlve seen more years like this back in 2020 if covid didn’t happen as well
And for the uniformed, Thom Hunt ran 4:02.7 on 160 boards at Sunkist almost 50 years ago. Guys should be better.
You say “guys should be better.” Why? Other than the shoes please tell me why they should be better. Faster tracks today? Sure. Why else should they be better? What secret do the guys have now that would make them better now? The internet? Please explain.
Provide is statistics for all the slow kids with rich parents who bought them super shoes and they still couldn't break 5:00.
No matter what these high school kids still had to move their legs fast enough to break 4:00. The shoes didn't give them their talent.
Anyone who has run in the Dragonfly, MD-X, or similar shoe knows that the shoes make a difference.
Those of you who argue the shoes make no difference are wrong, have never worn the shoes, or are simply in denial. It’s not massive, but they immediately give me 0.5s /lap, right out the box. Add to the training benefit they provide by “saving” my legs during hard efforts (fast stuff in the dragonfly, longer reps in the 4%, road races in the Next%) and the benefit is likely even greater.
These kids also have TOP notch training and an awesome, competitive racing scene these days. It all adds up to fast times.
But the shoes are 100% a factor from 800-10k. This is not a debate. The only debate is: “how much?”
based off elite and sub elite current times
800 - none or minuscule
1500/mile - 2 or 2.5 seconds
3000 - 5 to 8 seconds
5000 10 to 15 seconds
10000 20 to 30 seconds
this is based off how much average US times have improved. By the end of the year the top 50 average US mens 10000m times will average under 28 min for the first time ever. 2010-2019 that average was around 28:30. US women’s 10000 is even more. US indoor 3 and 5000 times are insanely better than just a couple years ago.
3 guys just broke the US ncaa record in the steeple. A record that was previously untouchable.
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