Lemme guess, you think that Trump won in 2020 also? Just because you don’t like a result, doesn’t mean you can “change the rules” to make them any different.
Trump lost. Get over it.
Shorter lost. get over it.
This is bizarre. You seem to reject the general principle here that dopers should not keep their medals. Should Ramzi be the 2008 Olympic champion. Kiprop lost. Deal with it. Shorter was cheated out of his 1976 marathon gold, as Willis was cheated out of his. Trump wasn't cheated out of 2020 victory. He went above and beyond the law to try to overturn a free and fair election result, to the point of fomenting insurrection to stop the certification of the election. Frank Shorter met the Olympic ideal, while Cierpinski cheated. Strip all of the Eastern European drug cheats of their medals. I'd love to see him and all the other Eastern European dopers sue to get their medals back. That would be an interesting public spectacle.
Ramzi won the race, so he should get the medal. The only way someone should be DQed is for either impeding another athlete or somehow running off of the track. I don't really care what supplements they take.
"Doping" is subjective. I take magnesium, a multivitamin, an iron supplement, vitamin B complex, albuterol for asthma, and copious amounts of caffeine. All of those give me performance enhancement. In the eyes of some people, I am cheating. I don't see it that way. I just want to run as well as I can.
Why are you anti-doping? If it's because it's an unlevel playing field, then just let everyone do it. Problem solved. If someone chooses not to, that's fine, but the opportunity can be equal for everyone involved.
If it's because doping is unsafe, I question that as well. If Ramzi doped, the unsafe methods should have caused his body to react negatively. The opposite is true. He actually became MORE HEALTHY and WON THE OLYMPICS?! How can doping be detrimental to your health when it literally makes you fitter?
The original silver medalist (whose name doesn't even deserve mention), was already stripped of his medal for doping. Willis was upgraded to second and awarded rightfully second place.
IMO he deserves the gold, but 14 years is a long tome to go back a correct sports history. In the same vein Frank Shorter probably deserves the Gold for the 1976 marathon.
I thought he was upgraded.
And as far as Shorter- YES!!!! and Krdong deserves his bronze.
We KNOW he who shall remain nameless doped. We've seen the reocrds.
"Doping" is subjective. I take magnesium, a multivitamin, an iron supplement, vitamin B complex, albuterol for asthma, and copious amounts of caffeine. All of those give me performance enhancement. In the eyes of some people, I am cheating. I don't see it that way. I just want to run as well as I can.
Doping is not subjective.
Is the substance on the banned list or is it not? No amount of mental gymnastics will change what is on the paper.
Is the substance on the banned list or is it not? No amount of mental gymnastics will change what is on the paper.
Each year, the production of the "banned list" is subject to a WADA committee decision, and there is little public visibility regarding the rational and which factors were considered.
For example, why ban Meldonium and not T3/T4 thyroid hormones?
The original silver medalist (whose name doesn't even deserve mention), was already stripped of his medal for doping. Willis was upgraded to second and awarded rightfully second place.
IMO he deserves the gold, but 14 years is a long tome to go back a correct sports history. In the same vein Frank Shorter probably deserves the Gold for the 1976 marathon.
Well...thats just it isnt it? If... we do start going back and stripping everything, it s just one more deterant. We shouldnt be concerned about stripping medals from someone who was innocent..."at the time". I know that would not work with the legal system so its tricky, but for doping, i feel like let everyone know up front that you lose retroactively if you dope. People dope because the risk is worth it. You get your medal, get out of poverty or whatever and who cares if you get caught later.
NWillis= Olympic Gold medalist
JSimpson= World champion!
And dang it, put them ON the podium at the next olympics!!
Kiprop was elevated from Silver to Gold when a test several months after the race showed Ramzi used PEDs. That promotion assumed Kiprop was the best clean runner that day.
Now, years later, we are saying Kiprop wasn’t clean. Does that really mean Willis was the best clean runner that day?
We can’t say. I think he was clean but can’t prove it.
This is getting silly, No he cant prove a negative, but if someone does get caught than thats what we have to go with! Shall we not put anyone in jail for robbing banks because we cant prove that the whole of humanity hasnt robbed a bank? People should get their gold or silver if they are thus far innocent and someone else got pinched. Are you suggesting we never give out any medals again?
This is bizarre. You seem to reject the general principle here that dopers should not keep their medals. Should Ramzi be the 2008 Olympic champion. Kiprop lost. Deal with it. Shorter was cheated out of his 1976 marathon gold, as Willis was cheated out of his. Trump wasn't cheated out of 2020 victory. He went above and beyond the law to try to overturn a free and fair election result, to the point of fomenting insurrection to stop the certification of the election. Frank Shorter met the Olympic ideal, while Cierpinski cheated. Strip all of the Eastern European drug cheats of their medals. I'd love to see him and all the other Eastern European dopers sue to get their medals back. That would be an interesting public spectacle.
Ramzi won the race, so he should get the medal. The only way someone should be DQed is for either impeding another athlete or somehow running off of the track. I don't really care what supplements they take.
"Doping" is subjective. I take magnesium, a multivitamin, an iron supplement, vitamin B complex, albuterol for asthma, and copious amounts of caffeine. All of those give me performance enhancement. In the eyes of some people, I am cheating. I don't see it that way. I just want to run as well as I can.
Why are you anti-doping? If it's because it's an unlevel playing field, then just let everyone do it. Problem solved. If someone chooses not to, that's fine, but the opportunity can be equal for everyone involved.
If it's because doping is unsafe, I question that as well. If Ramzi doped, the unsafe methods should have caused his body to react negatively. The opposite is true. He actually became MORE HEALTHY and WON THE OLYMPICS?! How can doping be detrimental to your health when it literally makes you fitter?
Well thats some middle ages medicine mentality right there.
Ramzi won the race, so he should get the medal. The only way someone should be DQed is for either impeding another athlete or somehow running off of the track. I don't really care what supplements they take.
"Doping" is subjective. I take magnesium, a multivitamin, an iron supplement, vitamin B complex, albuterol for asthma, and copious amounts of caffeine. All of those give me performance enhancement. In the eyes of some people, I am cheating. I don't see it that way. I just want to run as well as I can.
Why are you anti-doping? If it's because it's an unlevel playing field, then just let everyone do it. Problem solved. If someone chooses not to, that's fine, but the opportunity can be equal for everyone involved.
If it's because doping is unsafe, I question that as well. If Ramzi doped, the unsafe methods should have caused his body to react negatively. The opposite is true. He actually became MORE HEALTHY and WON THE OLYMPICS?! How can doping be detrimental to your health when it literally makes you fitter?
The anti-doping guidelines are three-fold, related to 1) potential performance enhancement, 2) potential harm to health, and 3) against the spirit of the sport.
The measure of "risk to health" is not measured by performance in a single competition. Consider for example, blood transfusions which can allegedly make you "fitter", or, if the blood has gone bad, can end you up in critical condition in a hospital. Or look at East German women who got "fitter", but now have lifelong permanent issues, or look at wrestlers and body-builders who die prematurely, etc.
Is the substance on the banned list or is it not? No amount of mental gymnastics will change what is on the paper.
Each year, the production of the "banned list" is subject to a WADA committee decision, and there is little public visibility regarding the rational and which factors were considered.
For example, why ban Meldonium and not T3/T4 thyroid hormones?
Your quibbles about what should be on the banned list have nothing to do with the point made above that the prohibited drugs are listed, which is therefore objective fact. That the decision by WADA to ban them is taken on expert medical and pharmaceutical advice in accordance with explicit criteria also shows the bans are objectively based. The only subjective view here is yours, and you have no professional medical or pharmaceutical expertise. You are merely a troll.
The original silver medalist (whose name doesn't even deserve mention), was already stripped of his medal for doping. Willis was upgraded to second and awarded rightfully second place.
IMO he deserves the gold, but 14 years is a long tome to go back a correct sports history. In the same vein Frank Shorter probably deserves the Gold for the 1976 marathon.
I thought he was upgraded.
And as far as Shorter- YES!!!! and Krdong deserves his bronze.
We KNOW he who shall remain nameless doped. We've seen the reocrds.
Not to be repetitive, but have you actually seen the records and if so where? i'd love to see them but not enough to try to track down some guy in Berlin.
I don’t fully understand the doping rules. But….shouldn’t he be?
Yes, of course he should be. But there are still hardcore doping apologists such as Rekrunner and ThoughtsLeader who will post walls of text explaining why being caught doping with EPO when you are running medicore times does not mean you weren't clean as a whistle when you were threatening to break El G's WR.
Don't forget Rojo, Wejo, and (to some extent) jgault.
Your quibbles about what should be on the banned list have nothing to do with the point made above that the prohibited drugs are listed, which is therefore objective fact. That the decision by WADA to ban them is taken on expert medical and pharmaceutical advice in accordance with explicit criteria also shows the bans are objectively based. The only subjective view here is yours, and you have no professional medical or pharmaceutical expertise. You are merely a troll.
These are subjective opinions with no objective basis.
Not to be repetitive, but have you actually seen the records and if so where? i'd love to see them but not enough to try to track down some guy in Berlin.
I didn't find the files on the internet -- maybe that didn't exist back then in the GDR, and/or they are still too secret to make generally public.
Abstract. Several classified documents saved after the collapse of the German Democratic Republic (GDR) in 1990 describe the promotion by the government of the
and some other publications (books you can buy in German):
Berendonk B. Doping Dokumente. Von der Forschung zum Betrug. Berlin: Springer-Verlag, 1991:492pp.. Berendonk B. Doping. Von der Forschung zum Betrug. Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowohlt Taschenbuchverlag, 1992:448pp.. Franke WW. Funktion und Instrumentalisierung des Sports in der DDR: Pharmakologische Manipulationen (Doping) und die Rolle der Wissenschaft. In: Deutscher Bundestag [German Parliament], ed. Report of the Enquete Commission, Aufarbeitung von Geschichtc und Folgen der SED-Diktatur in Deutschland. Vol. III/2, 1995:905–1142..
If you don't want to go to Berlin, and have a few contacts, apparently Frank Shorter himself has a copy including details about Cierpinski. He doesn't care about correcting the record though:
Thank you! Reading this actually gets me to question further whether or not Cierpinski really doped. Nothing in that article mentions anything about doping distance runners. They were mostly using steroids and in the 70's we all knew those were being used but didn't believe they were used on distance runners. The idea was that those drugs bulked you up, added weight, and actually slowed you down. The article mentions that most of the DDR swimmers who won gold medals and all of the throwers who did were in the doping program. Weight lifters get mentioned. So do sprinters. But unless I really missed something there's not a word about doping distance runners.
I know Shorter has said for many years that he's seen Cierpinski's name on the list of doped athletes. But as far as I can tell he's never made that list available to the general viewer. Maybe there's something that prevents him from doing so but it seems we're left to take him at his word here. If he's not going to make the list available I wish he'd at least say why he won't or can't.
Thank you! Reading this actually gets me to question further whether or not Cierpinski really doped. Nothing in that article mentions anything about doping distance runners. They were mostly using steroids and in the 70's we all knew those were being used but didn't believe they were used on distance runners. The idea was that those drugs bulked you up, added weight, and actually slowed you down. The article mentions that most of the DDR swimmers who won gold medals and all of the throwers who did were in the doping program. Weight lifters get mentioned. So do sprinters. But unless I really missed something there's not a word about doping distance runners.
I know Shorter has said for many years that he's seen Cierpinski's name on the list of doped athletes. But as far as I can tell he's never made that list available to the general viewer. Maybe there's something that prevents him from doing so but it seems we're left to take him at his word here. If he's not going to make the list available I wish he'd at least say why he won't or can't.
You are welcome. Poked around a little more, with just bits and pieces in articles. Looks like Shorter can have access under German law because he was a potential victim, and he met with Dr. Franke personally. It wasn't all the Stasi files, or originals but a lot of stuff was photocopied. He writes more about it in his book "My Marathon: Reflections on a Gold Medal Life", but the preview of the book I could see cut out an interesting page.
You may be onto something, as Cierpinski appears as No. 62 in a handwritten list -- minutes of a high level meeting -- but from the limited excerpt I could read in Shorter's book, he didn't think that would be hard enough evidence (and the IOC didn't want to rewrite history). Maybe it was just a plan, with the evidence of execution of the plan, and whether it was followed through, was not available.
What I really would like to see is that list, how you get into it, and that Cierpinski is really there. I'm not saying he isn't but from what I've been able to see, pretty much all of the evidence that he's there comes from Frank who says he's seen it.
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