Attn Hansons or anyone running Hillsdale

foxin, perhaps you can provide the evidence I seek about some kind of underachieving theme w/links to coach Lundberg. I found no specifics in ???'s comments but maybe you're a better reader than me or you know the guy.

People ARE smart enough to make their own opinions...but are greatly aided by specific info. The more you know, the smarter you are. I'd love to know more from ??? about Bill's underachieving coaching ways as that'd make me a smarter father of a kid looking at schools.

You say you're glad ??? left some info...what info is that, specifically?

Ahhhhhh! So how will the 5000 be at Hillsdal?

I am sure the 5000 will be fast, cuz I will be init!! ah just kidding....im not in shape because i have been working for the coast guard....but i am trying to get that night off so i can come back and defend my 4th place in the 5000 from last spring! err see how running 3 days a week and working over 100 hours a week affects my running.... it is funny how a thread talking about a meet can turn into school bashing.....I dont have much to say about Hillsdale other than i think they are a great group of guys...when i ran for Eastern Michigan, Coach Lumberg treated me right and was very nice, when i transferred to Grand Valley and competed against them more, he was still an extrememly outgoing, great individual and all of the memebers of our team respect him and the whole hillsdale xc/track program very much...Steve, i think those were some great comments and props for leaving your name and also with that not caring about being bashed by others who cant leave their name as you defend your team....I was loking forward to running against you outdoors, and working together to run fast, it is too bad things didnt work out better at indoor conference.....and more then likely i will not be back in action next spring for your senior year, so good luck with that......but when i DO return to action, i will look forward to competing against hillsdale and all the recruits you guys are trying to steal from us as you guys provided awsome competition all throuhg last fall and indoors, and though i hate to say it , if we ever do lose, it better eb cuz you guys wracked up a bunch of distance points, ...i guess blue is better than purple.....:)....anyway good luck with your seasons, hopefully i will see you guys either at the EMU twighlight or at the relays next week, as that is my entire track season if you can call it that for this spring...GO LAKERS!

Hillsdale has been solid in DII and the GLIAC for as long as I have been following it, when I was at Michigan Tech we considered it a great accomplishment to beat them at conference one year.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily as academically challenging as some on here seem to make it out though (I'll put it a good few notches above Eastern though). I think it would be more accurate to say that at larger schools the athletes are less likely to take harder majors (or even graduate). For example, how many of UofM's athletes are in engineering or such?

At smaller schools, especially those without full scholarships to hand out, athletes of all talents, dedicated or not, take on harder majors or get less "favors" from the school in return for being athletes. At Tech for example, ALL the runners (except 2 during my 4 years there) were either engineering or science majors, and the athletes had a higher GPA than the student body avg. I don't know for sure but I'd bet Hillsdale has some of the same things going on.

Awesome! I would have never have thought that a few objective comments would have fetched spirited responses! However, I find it quite odd that while most of you basically agree with me, you seem rather indignant towards me.

Scotth, you're funny! On the one hand you are finally realizing that I know what I am talking about here, that maybe the reason that I am not using my name is because it really wouldn't be all that prudent of a thing to do at this time, and that I am merely offering constructive criticism to friends. On the other hand, you seem a little too interested to obtain dirt. You already said your kid(s) are not in jeopardy of going there, and I think you probably know the questions you need answered by a prospective school, coach, etc. to make a good decision. Perhaps it's just me, but I feel hesitant to answer to a guy who says "Do tell". Sounds like something out of a Jane Austen read.

Observer, I am speaking from the guys side. I don't know Goodpastur as well, so I can not comment as definitively. Hopefully, the girls tear it up.

northern boy, I don't know how to make what I've said easier to understand. Sorry. If you roomed with someone who went to Hillsdale, how could I ever dispute what you know about their running program.

Another Hillsdaler, ding-ding-ding Bingo! You should win a prize!

hillsdale runner, oops... my bad.. you're totally right. You wrote CU and I mistakenly read CMU, or maybe I confused the Buffs with the Chippewas. Nontheless, the point still stands.

Tim, are you saying that I am bashing? Maybe you have not read my posts. I said that the distance crew and the school were nice, that Lundberg was a terrific guy, and that the place very well may be a great fit for a number of people. Man, sure wouldn't want to get bashed by me everyday!

AH, you have a really good feel for Hillsdale academia. It's not that tough, but I guess it makes some feel better to say that it is.

Steve, for someone who agrees with me, you have the most peculiar way of showing it. It almost sounded as if you read my post with a fair amount of distaste, and by the end of your post I think you were even trying to insult me. Oh well, if you have a hard time responding to the issues, what can I do?

Apparantly, one guy says that Eastern was easier for him than Hillsdale. So, it looks to me that the verdict is still out on that. Do you agree, or would you like to continue to talk about how the academic pressures of Hillsdale are too great to run well? (yawn)

Moving on to your next point, you said, "Secondly, elite runners don?t necessarily make great coaches." Exactly what I was sayin' bro. "?" - who is not me, by the way, as I already knew the answer to his question and was simply trying to help him out - said, "I'm surprised you don't see any hillsdale college runners turning out top-quality times. Their coach ( former 8:30's 3k SC and 4 min. miler Bill Lundberg) must know what he's doing?" So, if we both tell "?" that being a great runner doesn't necessarily make a great coach, why do you seem emotionally disturbed about it? Anyway, you're right, Lundberg shouldn't be held to a higher standard coaching-wise even though one would think that his athletic experience would help him out. He shouldn't be held to a lower standard either. And, personally, I don't find it all that appealing to compare to others when the goal is to do YOUR best.

Secret training regime? Please. Let me get this straight, you say that Lundberg had extraordinary talent that none of you guys have, and this is why he was better? Granted, Lundberg may very well be more gifted than most, but how does it help you (or any of the runners) to harp on this? Enough with this pity party about how you and the guys have no talent. I imagine by this point it has been inculcated in you, but I think a guy that was 14th and 4th in the Iowa state meet in XC and who was the 1600m state champ has a little talent too. Quit relying on the "no talent" excuse that has been provided to you. And by the way, all this talk about how the other schools snatch up all the recuits is ludicrous. Hillsdale as you know, but conveniently left out, is a private school that costs the same regardless if you coming from out of state or not, so the recruiting field (as you personally can attest) is not just MI... You guys get dudes from all over. Anyway, yes, every athlete is unique, but at the same time, athletes are more similar than not (you should read some of the Hadd posts to learn about effective training, so you at least do not walk away from Hillsdale without even knowing the basics)... Lundberg knows what it takes to develop well, but this is not passed down to you guys. Sorry.

You didn't seem to like my questions about whether or not the team dreams much. You actually sounded a tad defensive. I know the truth hurts, so I hold no grudge - it wouldn't be the first time that person who tells the truth gets negativity back. You are probably jut frustrated because what you envisioned coming in was likely undercut. Of course, I don't know for sure.

Lastly, you said, "I will say?to the credit of Coach Lundberg and the professors and students I?ve met here?that I dream about running less than I used to, because not only has being at Hillsdale helped me become a better runner, it?s shown me there?s more to dream about than just running." While I said, ". The distance squad is nice too, and all the more power to them if they run well, but you don't go to Hillsdale with the intention of squeezing the most out of your running... not even close." Again, why are you acting like we're on different pages? One thing, though, that you should be privy to is that the guys who can/do run well are not necessarily poor in academics, socially undeveloped, or even spiritually lacking or whatever, like you seem to indicate. A person can actually grow in different ways at the same time. It is not a this or that proposition.

Oh, enough on this. Again, Hillsdale a nice school with lots of neat people. Coach Lundberg is a great guy, and for the right person, Hillsdale is a superlative choice!

I wish you all well!

???, to summarize, you infer that Bill doesn't push his guys hard enough...to suit you. You offer no specific examples of this, no situations or quotes in context to prove your points. You say it wouldn't be prudent to reveal your name at this time. Say what? You hide then, afraid of being revealed for fear of...(you fill in the blank).

You are a poor reader to interpret my comments to mean my son can't or wouldn't want to go to Hillsdale. If he wanted to go and could get in, I'd send him there w/out a second thought. His parents would deal w/the finances.

..."you finally realize that I know what I'm talking about,"

well, um, no, no I don't. Too damn vague for me. Do I want dirt from you? Yes, yes I do. Give me your best shot. Tell me your name and give up specifics about Bill. You feel hesitant about 'Do tell', try this, spill your guts for me, please.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the things I say on here are the same things I'd say to your face. Do you have the confidence to offer me the same courtesy?

As per my being funny...that has been said about me. But I pick my spots and responding to you has not been one of them.

I think the only way Lundberg can be judged as a coach is to look at what his athletes have done. Regarding my own improvement under his training, I ran 15:44 for 5K in high school XC and a 9:24 3200m in track. After training with Lundberg for one year and two months, I ran a 9:08 3200m time-trial in practice. My sophomore track season I ran a 14:27 on the track, closing the last two miles in 9:12. Call me a dreamer, but some of Aufdemberge?s records may go down before I?m finished at Hillsdale.

Naturally, I took issue with ??? asking, ?Does anyone on the team dream?? I said yes, of course, and I gave an example. But supposedly that?s just me being defensive, trying to deny the real truth. I guess I gave the wrong answer; I guess specific examples aren?t enough to reply to the sweeping generalizations, which ??? likes to call objective comments.

Actually, it doesn?t matter how I answer that question?because ??? is always right. If I say, ?no we don?t dream?, he agrees with me, but if I say, ?yes, we do dream,? he say?s I?m in denial, because ?the truth hurts.?

I gave a quantitative example of someone one on our team who dreams. That?s what the question asked for, does anyone dream? I could have provided more examples if he had wanted, but he only asked for one.

My point here isn?t to lay out any more examples; it?s that ??? doesn?t make any sense when he argues like this. As C.S. Lewis said, ?[He is] arguing like a man who should say, ?If there were an invisible cat in that chair, the chair would look empty; but the chair does look empty; therefore there is an invisible cat in it.??

I.e: ?If we didn?t dream, it would hurt to have someone tell us that we don?t, and we would get defensive and say that we, in fact, do dream. But we did say that we, in fact, do dream, therefore we are being defensive about the fact that we really don?t dream.?

I don?t think it makes much sense to argue with invisible cats, or to argue with those who base their arguments around them. And as far as someone who?s hiding behind a screen-name, well there?s not much substantive to say about them either, so I?m done posting.

(Tim, are you really running Gina?s? You should try to score a Coast Guard jersey if you do.)

Steve Larson, I am replying to Tim Nichols post. He wrote, that he is sorry that things didn't work out for you at confrence. What happened? I see that you haven't raced yet this year, did you get hurt at confrence or something?

Steve, gonna try to show up at Gina, but i have duty that night and i am not sure if i will get it off or not, and i am working on getting a Coast Guard jersey printed up...to Dan G, what i said about things not working out at conference, i was referring to the fact that Steve and I traded off laps to try and get a fast time to get into nationals, but we didnt have it, then both got outkicked at the end by one guy......

Thanks, you should have had the guy that won help out with the lead, was he one of those guys that sit and kick, or was he just one of those guys that try to hang on and ended up running the race of his life. Where can I find the results to the meet.

I'm the guy who asked the original question about Hillsdale and Lundberg. I read every response you guys wrote and I think I got the answer to my quetion and more- Thanks

This is reguards to the post 2 up. 9:12 the last 2 miles? What the hell were you doing the first mile?

Your college running has not improved that much from High School.... 9:20 something in high school and you're only running 9:00's.

I ran 10:10 in High School and I'm running in the 14:20's and sub 9:00 2 mile.

You're still young in your college career and I'm looking forward to faster times for you.

Best of luck!

...I'm invisible... just like ????... don't you want to try to argue with me?

Hi all, I'm Hillsdale's other distance captain and thought maybe I should throw something out too. I got 63rd at Class B State meet my senior year in 16:24, not exactly lightning at MIS. I followed that up with a sweet 4:40 1600/10:00 3200 track season. Needless to say. I wasn't too heavily recruited: I heard from Aquinas, Albion, a few DIII schools, and Coach Lundberg. Wild Bill is a big reason I came to Hillsdale in the first place. I was considering not running at all in college, but after talking to Coach, I decided to give it a shot. 3 years later at the Gina Relays I ran 30:26 in the 10,000. It was a lot of hard work, but Coach inspired me to work that hard and to try and chase some very high goals. If you would have told me I'd run a 10k that fast when I was a freshman, I would have laughed at you. Yet here I am, with more college all conference awards than high school ones. I credit Lundberg with taking guys who run 16:30-17:00 and turning them into 15:30 or faster guys. The goal of a coach should be to improve his athletes, and he does that. If you give him the recruiting classes of CMU or EMU or even WMU, I'm sure he'd pump out better teams. I think he maximizes the athletes he gets.

On the academic side, did you come here? If you didn't go to school here, you can't really say how tough the academics are or are not. The fact of the matter is that we don't let anyone in who scores lower than 20 on any section of the ACT, including athletes. And these extra scholarships you're talking about, the non-athletic ones, usually require a high gpa and lots of volunteer hours. We generally get kids with good grades and test scores, but a 3.0 and a 26 ACT isn't going to get you much money here. For any significant money, you need closer to a 30 ACT coupled with a 3.5 or better.

Anyway, that's my spiel. We're really not the underachievers that people seem to think, I just wanted to let y'all know that. GO CHARGERS!!!

Randy, well said. You and Steve have done a million dollars worth of 'damage control' w/controlled, thoughtful comments on Bill and Hillsdale.

Scotth, maybe you can take a writing refresher while I brush up on my reading comp. You wrote, "I'd send my son to run for Bill in a heartbeat if: he wanted to go, could get in and his parents could find a way to finance the deal." It is generally accepted that when you use the past tense for "want", the wanting has either already been considered and subsequently dismissed or there was never any want as in "if he wanted to" to begin with. No need to jump down my throat for your ambiquity. Maybe the sentence you wanted to write was, "I'll send my son to run for Bill in a heartbeat if: he wants to go, etc, etc." I am sorry if my vague description regarding my identity or the many circumstances that have lead me to my conclusions are not satisfying for your curiosity. It is not my desire to rashly put forth details because I have no desire to make Lundberg look bad - I appreciate him. I do think it is worthwhile to provide a good picture for someone who is considering to attend Hillsdale what the program is about, and maybe to prod certain person(s) within the program to work towards correcting defiencies that they know despite outward denial. In short, you suggesting that I infer that Bill doesn't push his guys enough does not quite get to the issue, but it is about half way there. Again, sorry about the vagueness. You may attack me all the more in efforts to discredit me or my opinion, but I promise that I am in a position to make the assertions I have made.

Steve, I understand your stance, and I hope you have not taken anything I have written personally. I liked your reference to Lewis. Given my decision to not bring out specifics (which you should appreciate), the analogy you used makes for an effective argument. But, in reality, it falls short because we are not talking about an impossibility (invisible cat). Your position is indefensible primarily because it is incorrect. While I think that your statement that the only way to judge an athlete is to look at what his athletes have done is a bit narrow, if you look at this criteria, you will see that the numbers reflect my contention. Every year Hillsdale gets quality athletes (4:15-4:28 being the norm). The trend is much like your own. Improvement in the first year to year and a half and then it flatlines. Overwhelmingly, Hillsdale produces 14:40-15:00 athletes for its good recruits and 15:00-15:30 for the not as heavily recruited. So, you have actually done better than the Hillsdale norm, though I am not convinced that you are at where you could be. Even if you do break Aufdemberge's records (which I sincerely hope you do, and soon since it is your last year), it will not change what I have said. The records are way overdue for an update and they should be at least remotely approached every year. Maybe your breaking the record will open someone's eyes to see that you guys can run well and will change their outlook & training approach accordingly. I think you have spent too much time on the "Do you guys dream?" question. I am not trying to diss you guys - It was the questions that followed that one that deserved more attention.

Randy, thank you for the levelheadedness. If your HS times were honest efforts in the sense that you trained hard in an effective overall training regimen - ie. you didn't give half-effort by just running hard (or even just running at all) on race days, or the training plan was deeply flawed, which is very common in HS - then your story is a very good one, and I commend you and Lundberg on that. To your point, I wholeheartedly agree that Lundberg does do a good job of taking guys that ran 16:30-17 to 15:30 or faster. I disagree with your last couple sentences. It's the ones who have run faster in HS that have not had the same kind of improvement and who should be aware of what they are getting into. Hillsdale does get the recruits that the other schools get, but neither better teams nor individual runners come out.

All in all, I think we all have worked together well to come up with a good picture of the Hillsdale program. If you have run comparatively slower than a lot of other HS runners, then Hillsdale will most likely do very well in getting you to a respectable, GLIAC-competitive, 15:30 or so time. If you have run comparably faster than most in HS and/or think you have what it takes to break 30min in the 10K or run low 14s (or, even faster, of course), then Hillsdale has shown that you are signifiicantly going against odds if you choose to go there.

Again, I look forward to seeing you do well in the Gina relays, as well as the meets thereafter.

????, thanks for your Hillsdale assessment. I really think a lot of runners have trouble seeing the state of a program they are involved with objectively and if they can see it for what it is they are almost always sworn into denial by virtue of their involvment with the program.

I don't know a lot about this school in particular, but in general who wants to own up to not liking the program they're in? Or even admit any of its faults? For to do so would be to admit unhappiness in life and people like to keep the appearance of great satisfaction. No one ever likes cynics, but so often the cynics are right.

this thread is a bunch of geeks. who cares?

??? wrote:

Scotth, maybe you can take a writing refresher while I brush up on my reading comp. You wrote, "I'd send my son to run for Bill in a heartbeat if: he wanted to go, could get in and his parents could find a way to finance the deal."

???, my son is a junior in high school and hasn't even started thinking about prospective colleges. That should explain my comment to your satisfaction. What remains unsatisfying is the fact you remain anonymous and you beat around the bush w/claims about the Hillsdale program. Both aspects of your comments stink.