I attended one of those elite private schools, but I’m very proud now to work for a public university every bit as good as any of the private ones and a lot less expensive for the student.
Yes, you are absolutely right. I’m a professor have been involved with admissions at one of the top medical school in the US. The school strives for diversity, and this includes not giving undue consideration to the graduates of places like Harvard or Princeton or Williams just because of they are longstanding “elite” colleges. However, it still happens more than it should. At many top graduate programs and employers in various fields these legacy elite schools reman over represented. Also, as Nescac dad pointed out, there are some substantive differences. You can’t compare the resources, both in terms of faculty and opportunity, between MIT and the Colorado School of Mines (my father in law was on the faculty at the latter!) across the full spectrum of engineering and stem disciplines. Whether or not an undergrad can benefit from this difference is debatable and would depend a lot on the student.
I don’t disagree with you. I went to a large public school, and I have been extremely successful (at least financially) in life. Going to an elite college is not a prerequisite by any means. I will always maintain that it is the particular student, and not the school, that will dictate future success. However, I would also push back on the idea that an education at a state school is the same as one of the Ivies or the Nescac’s. And although Wise Old Man teaches at a public school, he did chose to send his daughter to one of the most elite private colleges in the country, so that is somewhat telling:-)
My experience during my state school education was large 400 person lecture halls with classes taught by TA’s, and very little if no availability for research at the undergrad level. My child’s experience is quite different with 5-10 people in class, all taught by highly acclaimed professors and no TA’s, and multiple requests to be involved with significant research, even as a freshman. The school even encourages the professors to take the students to lunches and dinners to further the learning experience. Thats not to say the state school student isn’t getting a good education, but it is certainly not the same. Is one “better” than the other? I think that term is somewhat subjective, but the data on future acceptance to medical schools is not.
Although the reasons for this are many, and we can certainly all agree there is inherent bias, racism, and certainly classism in the numbers, it is clear that students who attend elite colleges have a significantly higher chance of getting into elite medical or law schools, than state school students. Most of the Ivies and Nescac’s boast 80-95% acceptance at these post college institutions. In fact, 2/3 of all acceptances to the top 15 med schools come from the Ivies, Nescac+, or Stanford, Northwestern, Rice, etc. Basically schools with undergrad acceptances of under 15%. While state schools only account for 17% even though they graduate a lot more students. I don’t put much stock into statistics, and going to a top medical school is not a requirement to be a successful doctor. But there are inherent benefits to going to these more expensive schools then just putting a sticker on the back windshield of your car.
We are in a category where we don't earn much but spent 25 years saving for her education. Had we known that she would be an Ivy type kid, we wouldn't have saved.
Well Princeton Men just finished 5th at the Indoor Track Championships but the Ivies are really the Princeton and Harvard show though Cornell has a decent team this year and Yale has improved as of late. If your daughter wants a great education and while pursuing track then any of the Ivies could be a good fit but if she really wants to run first you are going to have much better resources and coaching at Princeton and Harvard.
It often takes people by surprise but Princeton has very strong athletics and it is a regional power in many sports from Track and field to Women's Volleyball, Soccer, and Tennis and has won numerous national championships in Field Hockey, Lacrosse and Rowing in addition to more niche sports like Fencing and squash plus several individual championships in Track and Field over the last decade. No other Ivy comes close athletics wise as Princeton has won over a quarter of all Ivy League Championships since 1957 and has ended the year with the most Ivy League championships 13 of the past 14 years.
In terms of NESCAC Williams is the class of the league and also has one of the best D3 Cross Country and Track programs in the country every year. Tufts is not bad either but it is a more urban school so their campus is not as bucolic as what one usually thinks of when they think small New England Liberal Arts School. Williams facilities and coaching are on par with most DI schools outside of the power 5, Tufts are quite good too. Middlebury is another good choice with great academics and also a strong athletics program, probably the best overall (not track) in NESCAC after Williams.
What I think you are probably wondering is whether track will help your daughter get into a great school and I think that it depends. For Princeton and Harvard unless she gets below a 4:55 for the 1600 (4:35 for 1500) I don't think she's gonna get much admission's help. TBH she'd really need to be at 4:50 (under 4:30 for 1500) for Princeton's coach to get excited about her and give her an admissions edge.
Her current times would make her a strong prospect for most NESCAC schools and she. could probably take home a lot of wins especially if she continues to improve. If she gets under 4:55 she will definitely be able to make any Ivy League team if nothing else as a walk-on but how much lower is going to impact what type of boost it gives her application. As the SAT is optional again this year I don't know how much 1500s vs. 1400s will mean but most Ivy's look beyond test scores even under normal times b/c they have many thousands more applicants with 1450+ scores than they have spots.
Many years ago a parent asked Princeton's then Dean of Admission Fred Hargadon if it was better to get A's in less challenging classes or A's and B's in Honors/AP classes. Without missing a beat he answered, "Ma'm you might be surprised at how many of our applicants get all A's in their AP classes.
Well Princeton Men just finished 5th at the Indoor Track Championships but the Ivies are really the Princeton and Harvard show though Cornell has a decent team this year and Yale has improved as of late. If your daughter wants a great education and while pursuing track then any of the Ivies could be a good fit but if she really wants to run first you are going to have much better resources and coaching at Princeton and Harvard.
It often takes people by surprise but Princeton has very strong athletics and it is a regional power in many sports from Track and field to Women's Volleyball, Soccer, and Tennis and has won numerous national championships in Field Hockey, Lacrosse and Rowing in addition to more niche sports like Fencing and squash plus several individual championships in Track and Field over the last decade. No other Ivy comes close athletics wise as Princeton has won over a quarter of all Ivy League Championships since 1957 and has ended the year with the most Ivy League championships 13 of the past 14 years.
In terms of NESCAC Williams is the class of the league and also has one of the best D3 Cross Country and Track programs in the country every year. Tufts is not bad either but it is a more urban school so their campus is not as bucolic as what one usually thinks of when they think small New England Liberal Arts School. Williams facilities and coaching are on par with most DI schools outside of the power 5, Tufts are quite good too. Middlebury is another good choice with great academics and also a strong athletics program, probably the best overall (not track) in NESCAC after Williams.
What I think you are probably wondering is whether track will help your daughter get into a great school and I think that it depends. For Princeton and Harvard unless she gets below a 4:55 for the 1600 (4:35 for 1500) I don't think she's gonna get much admission's help. TBH she'd really need to be at 4:50 (under 4:30 for 1500) for Princeton's coach to get excited about her and give her an admissions edge.
Her current times would make her a strong prospect for most NESCAC schools and she. could probably take home a lot of wins especially if she continues to improve. If she gets under 4:55 she will definitely be able to make any Ivy League team if nothing else as a walk-on but how much lower is going to impact what type of boost it gives her application. As the SAT is optional again this year I don't know how much 1500s vs. 1400s will mean but most Ivy's look beyond test scores even under normal times b/c they have many thousands more applicants with 1450+ scores than they have spots.
Many years ago a parent asked Princeton's then Dean of Admission Fred Hargadon if it was better to get A's in less challenging classes or A's and B's in Honors/AP classes. Without missing a beat he answered, "Ma'm you might be surprised at how many of our applicants get all A's in their AP classes.
Wonderful post and very well said. I agree with your assessment 100%
Well Princeton Men just finished 5th at the Indoor Track Championships but the Ivies are really the Princeton and Harvard show though Cornell has a decent team this year and Yale has improved as of late. If your daughter wants a great education and while pursuing track then any of the Ivies could be a good fit but if she really wants to run first you are going to have much better resources and coaching at Princeton and Harvard.
It often takes people by surprise but Princeton has very strong athletics and it is a regional power in many sports from Track and field to Women's Volleyball, Soccer, and Tennis and has won numerous national championships in Field Hockey, Lacrosse and Rowing in addition to more niche sports like Fencing and squash plus several individual championships in Track and Field over the last decade. No other Ivy comes close athletics wise as Princeton has won over a quarter of all Ivy League Championships since 1957 and has ended the year with the most Ivy League championships 13 of the past 14 years.
In terms of NESCAC Williams is the class of the league and also has one of the best D3 Cross Country and Track programs in the country every year. Tufts is not bad either but it is a more urban school so their campus is not as bucolic as what one usually thinks of when they think small New England Liberal Arts School. Williams facilities and coaching are on par with most DI schools outside of the power 5, Tufts are quite good too. Middlebury is another good choice with great academics and also a strong athletics program, probably the best overall (not track) in NESCAC after Williams.
What I think you are probably wondering is whether track will help your daughter get into a great school and I think that it depends. For Princeton and Harvard unless she gets below a 4:55 for the 1600 (4:35 for 1500) I don't think she's gonna get much admission's help. TBH she'd really need to be at 4:50 (under 4:30 for 1500) for Princeton's coach to get excited about her and give her an admissions edge.
Her current times would make her a strong prospect for most NESCAC schools and she. could probably take home a lot of wins especially if she continues to improve. If she gets under 4:55 she will definitely be able to make any Ivy League team if nothing else as a walk-on but how much lower is going to impact what type of boost it gives her application. As the SAT is optional again this year I don't know how much 1500s vs. 1400s will mean but most Ivy's look beyond test scores even under normal times b/c they have many thousands more applicants with 1450+ scores than they have spots.
Many years ago a parent asked Princeton's then Dean of Admission Fred Hargadon if it was better to get A's in less challenging classes or A's and B's in Honors/AP classes. Without missing a beat he answered, "Ma'm you might be surprised at how many of our applicants get all A's in their AP classes.
Please DON'T listen to all the D3 fanboys here. Only 17 women broke 5 minutes in the mile this indoor season in D3. #8 in the nation is 4:55. The Ivy League is VERY competitive - some schools already told you she'd need to run faster.
The Patriot League is perfect because they are just as strong academically, and her times would fit in well there. Those schools have academic and athletic scholarships that would help with the cost.
I don't want to come across as a snob but the Patriot League is generally speaking not as strong academically nor as selective as the Ivy League. If you exclude Annapolis and West Point none has an acceptance rate below 20% and most are high 20s to high 30s. The Ivy League's acceptance rates are all well below 10% except for Cornell (10.6%) and they have significantly higher median SAT scores.
Lehigh has a strong Science and Engineering program, BU has really upped its academics as of late but still has massive class sizes. Holy Cross has a great classics department. Colgate is probably the closest to NESCAC in terms of size and liberal arts focus while also offering DI athletics. BU has great track facilities. However other than the service academies and associate Patriot league members MIT (D3 track) and Georgetown the Patriot League is a step below the Ivies academically as well as the top NESCAC schools (Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury). I think that Tufts is generally better academically than any of the non service academy full members of the Patriot league as well. The Ivies are all ranked in the top 20 academically and most in the top 10. BU and Lehigh are just in the top 50.
Now I am the first to admit that students should not choose a school on its ranking or reputation but how it meets their needs and that there are many hundreds of universities in the US where one can get an excellent education but I don't think the Ivies and Patriot league are on the same level academically. I'd personally recommend my child choose one of the UC Schools (Santa Barbara, Davis, San Diego, UCLA or Berkeley) over any of the non service academies in the Patriot league as I feel they offer equal to better academics and a much better educational value.
Be careful when blindly looking at the D3 indoor performance lists... D3 held nationals on a flat track this year so all the tfrrs descending order times have been converted from banked to flat track times. More like 26 women broke 5 indoors and 70ish ran 5:05 or faster. OPs daughter would certainly have competition in division 3
Swarthmore here. Why won't she consider us? Only part of me regrets not running D1, but it was Swarthmore or P5 and not an Ivy. What's the the narrow focus? Check Centennial out.
We are in a category where we don't earn much but spent 25 years saving for her education. Had we known that she would be an Ivy type kid, we wouldn't have saved.
Gotcha. Well, is she married to the notion of an Ivy? We saved too, and we make just enough not to be eligible for any financial aid or grant money, but not enough to justify paying full price at an Ivy.
As I mentioned, our daughter wants medical school, so we encouraged her to look at really good schools that were hidden gems. She has gotten really good merit offers from all of them and invited to scholarship competitions from a handful.
If she gets full tuition or more, the decision will be easy. I just fail to see the value in paying $80,000 per year for “Ivy” when a great, private, liberal arts education can be had for under $35,000.
I also agree with the poster who mentioned the UCs as quality, viable options. Not that your daughter would get money, but have you considered schools like Rice, Vanderbilt, or Tulane? She might get some. Vanderbilt is better than the bottom half of the Ivy, as confirmed by one VP of Enrollment Management we talked to. Or, there are plenty of private options a tier below these that are generous with merit. Just look around.
Yes, you are absolutely right. I’m a professor have been involved with admissions at one of the top medical school in the US. The school strives for diversity, and this includes not giving undue consideration to the graduates of places like Harvard or Princeton or Williams just because of they are longstanding “elite” colleges. However, it still happens more than it should. At many top graduate programs and employers in various fields these legacy elite schools reman over represented. Also, as Nescac dad pointed out, there are some substantive differences. You can’t compare the resources, both in terms of faculty and opportunity, between MIT and the Colorado School of Mines (my father in law was on the faculty at the latter!) across the full spectrum of engineering and stem disciplines. Whether or not an undergrad can benefit from this difference is debatable and would depend a lot on the student.
I don’t disagree with you. I went to a large public school, and I have been extremely successful (at least financially) in life. Going to an elite college is not a prerequisite by any means. I will always maintain that it is the particular student, and not the school, that will dictate future success. However, I would also push back on the idea that an education at a state school is the same as one of the Ivies or the Nescac’s. And although Wise Old Man teaches at a public school, he did chose to send his daughter to one of the most elite private colleges in the country, so that is somewhat telling:-)
Based on his post history, it is quite obvious that he teaches at UCSF which is a graduate only school
Also, these schools want to see leadership in the community or really interesting projects or mission-oriented service that really set the kid apart. It’s not enough to merely be fast in the 1600 and be in the top 2% of test takers. This has been our experience. These kids have way too much pressure on them. Another reason we steered clear of “Ivy.” But that’s just our opinion, obviously.
I mentioned earlier that she chose our state school at only $4K per year. Vanderbilt has the same need based system.
You sure did. Nevermind, I thought I was responding to OP. Vanderbilt offers three different full tuition merit scholarships actually that have to be applied for separately and a handful of other, smaller options.
Schools like Washington University in St. Louis and Tulane also offer merit without need. But, it doesn’t really get any better than $4k per year for a non-need based kid. I don’t see how my daughter would’ve refused that deal (or anyone really).
Ok, I’m going to step out of the thread now. There are plenty of good options OP.
^ Although I should mention that the same SF elites who love to parrot the whole "public schools are just as good as private schools!" narrative would NEVER send their own kids to public schools (e.g. SFUSD), as they would gladly fork over $50-60k per year in HS tuition for their precious children.
This whole thread reeks of overly-involved tiger parents (many of whom are legacy themselves) trying to find backdoor opportunities to gain their daughters admission into a top-tier school. When Ivies and elite LA colleges talk about diversifying their student body, they are essentially trying to prevent admitting people like the posters on this thread; wealthy families' children who come from privileged backgrounds where mommy and daddy hold their hand and groom them into becoming the perfect applicant.
I don't want to come across as a snob but the Patriot League is generally speaking not as strong academically nor as selective as the Ivy League. If you exclude Annapolis and West Point none has an acceptance rate below 20% and most are high 20s to high 30s. The Ivy League's acceptance rates are all well below 10% except for Cornell (10.6%) and they have significantly higher median SAT scores.
Lehigh has a strong Science and Engineering program, BU has really upped its academics as of late but still has massive class sizes. Holy Cross has a great classics department. Colgate is probably the closest to NESCAC in terms of size and liberal arts focus while also offering DI athletics. BU has great track facilities. However other than the service academies and associate Patriot league members MIT (D3 track) and Georgetown the Patriot League is a step below the Ivies academically as well as the top NESCAC schools (Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury). I think that Tufts is generally better academically than any of the non service academy full members of the Patriot league as well. The Ivies are all ranked in the top 20 academically and most in the top 10. BU and Lehigh are just in the top 50.
Now I am the first to admit that students should not choose a school on its ranking or reputation but how it meets their needs and that there are many hundreds of universities in the US where one can get an excellent education but I don't think the Ivies and Patriot league are on the same level academically. I'd personally recommend my child choose one of the UC Schools (Santa Barbara, Davis, San Diego, UCLA or Berkeley) over any of the non service academies in the Patriot league as I feel they offer equal to better academics and a much better educational value.
Why do D3 snobs so obsessed with acceptance rate? That means nothing. Look at AVERAGE ALUMNI SALARY. Many Patriot League schools embarrass even Ivy League schools in that category. Most NESCAC schools have a DISMAL alumni salary.
D3 buffoons want you to spend MORE money for a degree that will give you a LOWER salary. How did these fools even get into a high academic school??? Probably a legacy admit.
I don't want to come across as a snob but the Patriot League is generally speaking not as strong academically nor as selective as the Ivy League. If you exclude Annapolis and West Point none has an acceptance rate below 20% and most are high 20s to high 30s. The Ivy League's acceptance rates are all well below 10% except for Cornell (10.6%) and they have significantly higher median SAT scores.
Lehigh has a strong Science and Engineering program, BU has really upped its academics as of late but still has massive class sizes. Holy Cross has a great classics department. Colgate is probably the closest to NESCAC in terms of size and liberal arts focus while also offering DI athletics. BU has great track facilities. However other than the service academies and associate Patriot league members MIT (D3 track) and Georgetown the Patriot League is a step below the Ivies academically as well as the top NESCAC schools (Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury). I think that Tufts is generally better academically than any of the non service academy full members of the Patriot league as well. The Ivies are all ranked in the top 20 academically and most in the top 10. BU and Lehigh are just in the top 50.
Now I am the first to admit that students should not choose a school on its ranking or reputation but how it meets their needs and that there are many hundreds of universities in the US where one can get an excellent education but I don't think the Ivies and Patriot league are on the same level academically. I'd personally recommend my child choose one of the UC Schools (Santa Barbara, Davis, San Diego, UCLA or Berkeley) over any of the non service academies in the Patriot league as I feel they offer equal to better academics and a much better educational value.
Why do D3 snobs so obsessed with acceptance rate? That means nothing. Look at AVERAGE ALUMNI SALARY. Many Patriot League schools embarrass even Ivy League schools in that category. Most NESCAC schools have a DISMAL alumni salary.
D3 buffoons want you to spend MORE money for a degree that will give you a LOWER salary. How did these fools even get into a high academic school??? Probably a legacy admit.
You are mixing your comparisons between NESCAC and Ivies. Lehigh is the only Patriot league school in the top 10 of alumni salaries whereas the Ivies hold 5 of the top 10 spots. MIT, Stanford, Duke and Notre Dame round things out. Cornell is 11 and Brown 15 and Columbia 24, no Patriot School other than Lehigh is in the top 25 so I am not sure where your alumni salary assertions come from. https://www.newsweek.com/private-colleges-university-graduates-earn-most-money-1607825 Top 10: 1. MIT* 2. Harvard 3. Stanford 4. Princeton 5. Upenn 6. Duke 7. Yale 8. Dartmouth 9. Notre Dame 10. Lehigh
*MIT is an associate member of Patriot league for women's rowing only. It is Division III in all major sports and its primary conference is the DIII NEWMAC along with schools like Wellesley, Smith, Babson, and WPI.
This is another alumni salary chart, the ranking order is a bit different than the Newsweek one but the Ivies and many D3 schools like Williams and Harvey Mudd fare much better than the Patriot league here as well. https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors
I was skeptical of the other guy's post but your own list proves you wrong. Where are the NESCAC schools in the list? The payscale list shows the patriot league with:
Navy - 4
Army - 9
Colgate - 12
Lehigh - 21
Lafayette - 43
Bucknell - 45
There are many Patriot League schools ahead of several NESCAC and Ivy League schools.
My point was mainly on the Patriot league vs. Ivies specifically and D3 in general not NESCAC. I have nothing against the Patriot league, NESCAC, or any other conference for that matter or that Patriot league salaries are bad. Rather I was trying to point out that when stop it please posted that "Many Patriot League schools embarrass even Ivy League schools" in alumni salary and "D3 buffoons want you to spend MORE money for a degree that will give you a LOWER salary." his statements weren't accurate.
Four of the top 10 schools were D3 vs. the two Patriot League Service Academies. Ivies were 3 of top 10, 5 of top 20, and all 8 in top 50. Patriot league was 2 schools in top 10, 3 schools in top 20, and 6 of 10 in top 50.
My point was mainly on the Patriot league vs. Ivies specifically and D3 in general not NESCAC. I have nothing against the Patriot league, NESCAC, or any other conference for that matter or that Patriot league salaries are bad. Rather I was trying to point out that when stop it please posted that "Many Patriot League schools embarrass even Ivy League schools" in alumni salary and "D3 buffoons want you to spend MORE money for a degree that will give you a LOWER salary." his statements weren't accurate.
Four of the top 10 schools were D3 vs. the two Patriot League Service Academies. Ivies were 3 of top 10, 5 of top 20, and all 8 in top 50. Patriot league was 2 schools in top 10, 3 schools in top 20, and 6 of 10 in top 50.
There are Patriot League schools ahead of Ivy League schools in the alumni salary list that you posted. Thus the statement "Many Patriot League schools embarrass even Ivy League schools" in alumni salary" is correct.
Patriot League schools are cheaper because they offer scholarships. The list you posted proves they get paid more than NESCAC schools. Thus the statement ""D3 buffoons want you to spend MORE money for a degree that will give you a LOWER salary."" is correct.
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