Cold War warrior wrote:
Do not forget, bombing stops if Ukraine surrenders.
"Just stop fighting back. If you let him have his way he wont hurt you.. anymore"
What tremendous insight.
-
40
-
105 iq is above most liberals.
36 -
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
bothered wrote:
And call you a Russian stooge. They are unable to think objectively and/or abstractly. All they understand is "Ukraine GOOD! Russia BAD!"
When you start deliberately bombing and shelling civillians you lose the benefit of nuanced consideration of your motivations. Whether he was right or wrong for invading, and whether Ukraine was in the right or wrong in the past, Russia and Putin are very clearly in the wrong here.
In the context of all the murders of innocent victims initiated by Putin, changing the narrative to the good reasons Putin had to start this butchery seems to miss the glaring issue here. That narrative reeks of trying to engender sympathy and "understanding" for this murderer.
I am sure any evil person in history has reasons why they did evil things.
Watching these innocents getting bombed even when trying to leave is sickening.
We could save many lives if someone Vladimir Putined, Putin. In the past Putin has used poison frequently.
40 -
OozmaKappa wrote:
Cold War warrior wrote:
Do not forget, bombing stops if Ukraine surrenders.
"Just stop fighting back. If you let him have his way he wont hurt you.. anymore"
What tremendous insight.
Actually true. I am glad letsrun posters have no authority in the real world. Letsrun posters would have U.S. troops fighting Putin/Russia.
07 -
bothered wrote:
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
I would also hope the people in our government would understand the implication of publicly stating, "I understand Putin's motivations."
It's understandable that some people on a message board are fairly clueless about the nuances of the English language.
Do you really think there are people who think we should negotiate blindly? Do you really think there are people who think we should not try to figure out his motivations? The fact that you are confused by all this and pose such a ridiculous question makes me question your own motivations. (and intelligence)
Fine - how about "honest analysis" instead of "understanding"
Better?
sure
It's funny that you mention strawman arguments earlier, because your original post seems to be proposing its own strawman argument.
Do you really think there are many people on the message board are pushing back hard against doing an honest analysis of Putin's motives? Seems like you have made up a hypothetical situation that doesn't really exist merely to try to create an argument.
People will push back against rationalizing and justifying Putin's actions, but I haven't seen one person push back against doing an honest analysis of his actions.
Please post examples of the hordes of people that you imply are doing that.40 -
Posters on this site can down arrow all you want as if I care or not if readers like the truth. U.S. is not going to be involved with a No Fly Zone to make posters and down arrow people on this site happy.
28 -
Cold War warrior wrote:
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
When you start deliberately bombing and shelling civillians you lose the benefit of nuanced consideration of your motivations. Whether he was right or wrong for invading, and whether Ukraine was in the right or wrong in the past, Russia and Putin are very clearly in the wrong here.
Stop it with the killing civilians propaganda. Every military in combat does it. The military come from the people. If parents, siblings and cousins of military personnel are against their nation's war effort and believe surrender is a logical solution, military and political leaders follow the lead of the people. When didn't U.S. intentionally kill civilians? U.S. heavy bombers intentionally fire bombed German cities, German civilians WW2 to degrade the fighting spirit. U.S. heavy bombers intentionally fired bombed civilians, Japan, WW2. In Viet Nam, U.S. Burned the Villages in Order to Save the Villages.
US burning villages in Viet nam was terrible and should be condemned. Russia openly targeting civilians with bombs is terrible and should be condemned.
See, it's not that hard.60 -
CrispyChicken wrote:
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
In this context, 'understand' is most often meant to imply being partially sympathetic toward and granting justification for. It implies that the action is rational and reasonable.'
'I don't agree with it, but I understand why he did it.'
There's a reason Hitler scholars don't often say "I understand why Hitler did it."
"I understand why Ted Bundy did what he did," is not something you are going to hear from most people.
Most people understand this. Maybe you don't.
You obviously do not understand the "rational actor" analysis in the study of national security strategy.
You obviously do not understand my post.
20 -
Cold War warrior wrote:
Thisnees wrote:
You know that things can change, right? Your most recent example is from a war 50 years ago. Since at least the Gulf War - and certainly in AFG and Iraq - the US has gone to great lengths to reduce civilian casualties. Any where near perfect? Nope. But in the majority of cases, tries quite hard. Very easy for me to believe that Putin is far, far less concerned about it.
Reports from U.S. media, Russia has lost thousands of ground forces. Most likely not accurate but Putin/Russia admit that Russia has lost hundreds of ground troops. More likely than not, Putin/Russia sent infantry troops into apartment complex from where Ukrainian guerrillas fight &/or from where Ukrainian guerrillas reside. Obviously than did not work. U.S. at times are willing to send in squad or platoon of special forces or regular infantry personnel to capture/kill guerillas. If it doesn't work out, U.S. has and will bomb the entire apartment complex. Difference, U.S. military will give a narrative to their media contacts and explain why apartment building was bombed. You are a sucker for U.S. media narrative. Why would Russia randomly bomb an apartment complex? If Russian military are correct or not, most likely Russian military believe Ukrainian guerrillas are in apartment complex. Do not forget, bombing stops if Ukraine surrenders.
lol.......look at all those baseless assumptions you are making. Where are you getting you inside intel on Russian military actions. Or are you just making stuff up out of your own ass?
30 -
karen rodgers wrote:
Long story short, Putin is still feeling the impacts of losing the Cold War, and now he's got Ukraine, a former puppet state rather brazenly showing that they'd rather align with Western culture than the Russian/proto-Soviet mindset of church and country.
This can't stand if Putin wants to rebuild the Empire. So he's crushing it, while simultaneously crushing dissent from his own people.
He's deluded and absolutely a clown who is on his way out to end up in exile somewhere, but that's what's happening.
This is it.
As for OP, has an IQ 90-95 and is jealous of the "elites" with IQ over 100.
32 -
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
Cold War warrior wrote:
Reports from U.S. media, Russia has lost thousands of ground forces. Most likely not accurate but Putin/Russia admit that Russia has lost hundreds of ground troops. More likely than not, Putin/Russia sent infantry troops into apartment complex from where Ukrainian guerrillas fight &/or from where Ukrainian guerrillas reside. Obviously than did not work. U.S. at times are willing to send in squad or platoon of special forces or regular infantry personnel to capture/kill guerillas. If it doesn't work out, U.S. has and will bomb the entire apartment complex. Difference, U.S. military will give a narrative to their media contacts and explain why apartment building was bombed. You are a sucker for U.S. media narrative. Why would Russia randomly bomb an apartment complex? If Russian military are correct or not, most likely Russian military believe Ukrainian guerrillas are in apartment complex. Do not forget, bombing stops if Ukraine surrenders.
lol.......look at all those baseless assumptions you are making. Where are you getting you inside intel on Russian military actions. Or are you just making stuff up out of your own ass?
And he's ignoring the fact that Russia is bombing and shelling apartment buildings and train stations occupied by civilians in cities Russia's troops have not entered, eliminating the narrative that they first tried to clean the buildings with ground troops or even knew whether there were hostile fighters in the buildings.
30 -
bothered wrote:
just listen to Russia wrote:
Strategy is not what is under discussion here. I did not claim that Russian diplomats are sharing Russia’s strategy.
you’re trying to tell us that Russia has valid reasons for the invasion, but they are choosing to instead present stupid reasons to the UN?
You are slow.
I will say again, there is a difference between examining someone's motivations and endorsing them.
You think the CIA is taking what Russian diplomats say on face value? Lol. Do you
And yes, strategy is what is under discussion here. Trying to understand Putin's true motivation must also involve an understanding his strategy.
You're kind of proving the point of my thread dude, lol
WTF are you talking about? We all know what Putin's motivations are. So what? His motivations hit deaf ears as they should. His motivations mean NOTHING other than just to know what drives him, but his thoughts are invalid. He's a murderous thug, and you are giving him too much credence. You don't get to bomb the crap out of a country and try to take it over just because you don't like the way the Soviet Union ended and how the world celebrated that ending. I don't care that he's mad at NATO or the EU or he feels disrespected by the world. I could not care less. None of that validates in any way what he's doing, and you wanting to discuss his motivations is trying to give them credence. Nope.
So yes, in this case, Russia = bad. Ukraine = good. There are rarely such clear cut examples of good vs. evil as this one.
113 -
bothered wrote:
Hayduke wrote:
What do you believe his motives are
Ultimately, I believe he's an imperialist who wants to expand the territory and control of Russia. As a secondary goal, I think he wants to challenge the hegemony of the West and perhaps create an axis with China that can operate completely outside of the US / Western Europe paradigm.
I think he's also genuinely threatened by NATO and wants to create a buffer zone.
However, there's a lot of propaganda coming out from both sides. Ukraine was doing a lot of really shady things before the war. Ukraine was also flaunting their independence in Russia's face, knowing Russia had imperialist intentions.
War is complex and dirty. It's easy to label one side as "bad" and the other as "good" but the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Seriously? "Flaunting their independence?" As if their independence is something that should be covered up and not talked about in polite society.
Oh wait, I guess it was impolite of Ukraine to "flaunt" their independence since said independence clearly has less validity than Russia's sacred imperialist intentions.
Wow!
30 -
Bothered is either a Russian nationalist or a trump/ tucker Carlson lover. I miss the time when real authentic conservatives ruled the republican party. Only Liz and Mitt remain.
There is no defense for Putin.
43 -
Cold War warrior wrote:
Posters on this site can down arrow all you want as if I care or not if readers like the truth. U.S. is not going to be involved with a No Fly Zone to make posters and down arrow people on this site happy.
US kids are chicken-hawk keyboard savages who live to jerk off to their haywire emotions.
The LAST thing they want is to be happy. They want to be angry, afraid, upset, miserable, bored, anything but content. They're here to hate.
I'm afraid we've lost an entire generation to permanent degeneracy of both mental and physical health.45 -
Flagpole wrote:
bothered wrote:
You are slow.
I will say again, there is a difference between examining someone's motivations and endorsing them.
You think the CIA is taking what Russian diplomats say on face value? Lol. Do you
And yes, strategy is what is under discussion here. Trying to understand Putin's true motivation must also involve an understanding his strategy.
You're kind of proving the point of my thread dude, lol
WTF are you talking about? We all know what Putin's motivations are. So what? His motivations hit deaf ears as they should. His motivations mean NOTHING other than just to know what drives him, but his thoughts are invalid. He's a murderous thug, and you are giving him too much credence. You don't get to bomb the crap out of a country and try to take it over just because you don't like the way the Soviet Union ended and how the world celebrated that ending. I don't care that he's mad at NATO or the EU or he feels disrespected by the world. I could not care less. None of that validates in any way what he's doing, and you wanting to discuss his motivations is trying to give them credence. Nope.
So yes, in this case, Russia = bad. Ukraine = good. There are rarely such clear cut examples of good vs. evil as this one.
What an ignorant take on the situation, but then again your take is always the same as the msn since you've never had an original thought of your own.
I could be wrong, but it's pretty obvious that Putin watched a democratically elected leader of Ukraine get ousted by the west and figured it was only a matter of time before they try the same thing in Russia. The fact that the average idiot here thinks they would have stopped with Ukraine is Putin's motivation.
49 -
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
Cold War warrior wrote:
Reports from U.S. media, Russia has lost thousands of ground forces. Most likely not accurate but Putin/Russia admit that Russia has lost hundreds of ground troops. More likely than not, Putin/Russia sent infantry troops into apartment complex from where Ukrainian guerrillas fight &/or from where Ukrainian guerrillas reside. Obviously than did not work. U.S. at times are willing to send in squad or platoon of special forces or regular infantry personnel to capture/kill guerillas. If it doesn't work out, U.S. has and will bomb the entire apartment complex. Difference, U.S. military will give a narrative to their media contacts and explain why apartment building was bombed. You are a sucker for U.S. media narrative. Why would Russia randomly bomb an apartment complex? If Russian military are correct or not, most likely Russian military believe Ukrainian guerrillas are in apartment complex. Do not forget, bombing stops if Ukraine surrenders.
lol.......look at all those baseless assumptions you are making. Where are you getting you inside intel on Russian military actions. Or are you just making stuff up out of your own ass?
Does it seem unlikely guerrillas are in apartments? Tv media have been interviewing females all week, age 25 to 75 in Ukraine who brag about making I.E.D.s
02 -
SeattleSilver wrote:
Murder is not nuanced. wrote:
lol.......look at all those baseless assumptions you are making. Where are you getting you inside intel on Russian military actions. Or are you just making stuff up out of your own ass?
And he's ignoring the fact that Russia is bombing and shelling apartment buildings and train stations occupied by civilians in cities Russia's troops have not entered, eliminating the narrative that they first tried to clean the buildings with ground troops or even knew whether there were hostile fighters in the buildings.
Putin/Russians have killed more than 1 Ukrainian civilian. A point of agreement. What is your plan? Over the past couple of weeks I emailed my two U.S. Senators, U.S. Rep. and Speaker Pelosi and told them directly, I told them all to stand down and do not back a U.S./N.A.T.O. No Fly Zone. I told said politicians Ukraine cannot win. I told U.S. politicians the best way to save Ukrainian lives is for Ukraine to surrender. I suggest all of you who have been watching news shows without a skeptical eye to say the same to your politicians.
Do some of you believe you are going to shame Biden into endorsing a No Fly Zone over Ukraine? You all need to find a hobby like fishing or running or something. M.I.C. will NOT allow Biden to provide for a No Fly Zone over Ukraine. No matter how many civilian deaths are shown on tv.
05 -
Darn tootin' Putin wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
WTF are you talking about? We all know what Putin's motivations are. So what? His motivations hit deaf ears as they should. His motivations mean NOTHING other than just to know what drives him, but his thoughts are invalid. He's a murderous thug, and you are giving him too much credence. You don't get to bomb the crap out of a country and try to take it over just because you don't like the way the Soviet Union ended and how the world celebrated that ending. I don't care that he's mad at NATO or the EU or he feels disrespected by the world. I could not care less. None of that validates in any way what he's doing, and you wanting to discuss his motivations is trying to give them credence. Nope.
So yes, in this case, Russia = bad. Ukraine = good. There are rarely such clear cut examples of good vs. evil as this one.
What an ignorant take on the situation, but then again your take is always the same as the msn since you've never had an original thought of your own.
I could be wrong, but it's pretty obvious that Putin watched a democratically elected leader of Ukraine get ousted by the west and figured it was only a matter of time before they try the same thing in Russia. The fact that the average idiot here thinks they would have stopped with Ukraine is Putin's motivation.
1) I don't watch read anything from MSN or watch MSNBC, so you're wrong.
2) I never said my thought here was original. There is no need for original thought here anyway, and in fact, original thought would just be wrong. Putin is power hungry. He has said Russia is constantly humiliated due to the fall of the USSR, and he feels it is disrespectful for NATO to expand. Putin has been causing trouble for a long time. His issue isn't just that Ukraine had a revolution and ousted his puppet President. You should stop your love of Putin. He's a bad guy. You are an idiot.
72 -
Darn tootin' Putin wrote:
What an ignorant take on the situation, but then again your take is always the same as the msn since you've never had an original thought of your own.
I could be wrong, but it's pretty obvious that Putin watched a democratically elected leader of Ukraine get ousted by the west and figured it was only a matter of time before they try the same thing in Russia. The fact that the average idiot here thinks they would have stopped with Ukraine is Putin's motivation.
The leader of Ukraine was ousted in 2014 by Ukrainians and Putin being worried about the same thing happening in Russia is a large part of his motivation. As an economic leader of Russia, Putin is an enormous failure and survives in his current role only by authoritarian tactics. Democracy and accountability to the citizenry rightly scare the crap out of him.
To draw an equivalence between this and the apparent current Russian objective of removing the current Ukrainian government by overwhelming and indiscriminate use of military force is nonsense.
The situation in 2014 was complex and no doubt western forces as well as Russia played a role, but the characterizations of that era being pedaled here by the usual trolls are just stupid and transparent gaslighting. This is worth reading for background:To preempt the inevitable, "but wikipedia" response, this essay is backed by hundreds of references. If a respondent has something accessible and higher quality, please feel free to provide it.
12
What People Are Talking About On LetsRun
No top threads at the moment. Check back soon.