Why aren't there more short-distance road races?

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

let's get this started! wrote:

Just separate everyone based on times. You could have a schedule like this:

Heat 1 - seed times under 4:30, starts at 9:00 AM

Heat 2 - seed times from 4:30-4:49, starts at 9:03 AM

Heat 3 - seed times from 4:50-5:09, starts at 9:06 AM

Heat 4 - seed times from 5:10-5:29, starts at 9:09 AM

Add more heats as necessary to keep the heat sizes manageable. Sure, you'll get some people who'll exaggerate their seed times, but having three 5:10 guys in the sub 4:30 heat won't cause an injury hazard to anyone, nor will the following heat have to deal with overtaking them.

The volume zone in a hobby jogger mile race is something like 6-9 minutes. You can put all runners under 5 min in the first corral. And yes, 8:30 milers starting in the 6:00-6:30 corral would create a serious safety problem.

I think you're underestimating most people's speed.

At a local mile race (slightly downhill, but not by much), most men in their 20s broke 5, and even in the 40-49 age group, a 5:17 wouldn't even get you in the top half of males who're that age:

Road 5K times are slow because almost nobody who enters them has maximized their aerobic potential, and pacing is often an issue as well. It's not unheard of for a 5:20 miler to run the first mile well under 6 and then slog his way to a 21+ minute time.

most guys have speed wrote:

At a local mile race (slightly downhill, but not by much), most men in their 20s broke 5, and even in the 40-49 age group, a 5:17 wouldn't even get you in the top half of males who're that age:

https://geminitiming.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/ss_mile_age_groups_19.html

Runners under 5 min.

1-10 M. 0/50.

11-14 M. 2/26.

15-19 M. 9/24.

20-29 M. 22/30.

30-39 M. 15/40.

40-49 M. 5/18.

50-59 M. 1/21.

60-69 M. 0/21.

70-99 M. 0/6.

1-10 F. 0/21.

11-14 F. 0/31.

15-19 F. 0/16.

20-29 F. 1/14.

30-39 F. 0/30.

40-49 F. 0/20.

50-59 F. 0/15.

60-69 F. 0/6.

70-99 F. 0/3.

"Unknown" 0/1.

Total 55/ 393.

But only men in their 20s and 30s count as "runners" on this board, right?

I have run almost every outdoor distance from the 100M through the 2 mile on the track and road distances from 1 mile to half marathon. The 800M definitely left me feeling the worst, anytime I ran I felt like I was gonna vomit. I would be winded after the 400 and didn't feel great after the mile but the combo of sprinting plus two laps distance was the worst.

I have started to see more and more mile races than I used to and think that is great and would love to be able to run shorter distances but I don't think there's that much demand. Virtually none of my high school and college track teammates actually ran track after college sans the handful who know that we are in our 40s are who are interested in the masters scene.

As others have said the cost / organizational efforts weighed against public interest makes the ROI low on having such races. There are tens of millions of recreational runners in the US who already run 5K to 10K+ on a regular basis so running a race at this distance is pretty natural. There's not a lot of people who are regularly running a mile or shorter for fun, maybe some do for workout / training purposes but this group is a small subset of the overall running community tho participates in organized races.

My point still stands. The volume zone in a hobby jogger mile race is not 6:00-9:00. There are a significant number of sub 5 guys and far more people under 6:00 than over 8:00.

I think the solution is road and street events. Have some short distances and other challenges. People could do one or more events and just have fun without the pressure of a performance on a track or field.

I think there's not much demand due to a lack of opportunity and awareness, and not a lack of interest. I'd love to race an 800/1K/1500/mile both on the track and on the roads, but I have limited options:

1.) Drive several hours to an all-comers meet, wait around for a long time (thanks to a rolling schedule, which means that you don't know exactly what time the 800 will start), run your event(s), and drive back home. Whole day gone.

2.) Avoid the rolling schedule by driving or flying to a college/open race with fixed times. It still takes up a good portion of your day, and this is not an option for middle aged guys who will likely DFL, get embarassed, and hold up the meet.

3.) Hope that there's a road mile near me. Fortunately, there is, but it's only held once a year.

Most people who want to race shorter distances either don't have the opportunity or are unaware of the opportunity. If you create it and advertise it well, they will come.

I agree, I'd love to have 800, 1k and mile races. That way I can actually train for something I'm naturally good at and maintain some muscle mass

most guys have speed wrote:

My point still stands. The volume zone in a hobby jogger mile race is not 6:00-9:00. There are a significant number of sub 5 guys and far more people under 6:00 than over 8:00.

2019 Fifth Avenue Mile.

Under 6 min: 1845/9276.

Over 8 min: 2759/9276.

(Over 9 min 1476/9276.)

About half of finishers are between 6 and 8 min, and about the same numbers for under 6 min and over 9 min.

They have plenty of these races--and there for kids ten and under! Man up already. I'm not paying 25-100 dollars to run for 3 or 4 minutes or ten minutes for that matter. What a crock of sh^t!!!!

I don't get this logic. I've run a good amount of 800s, and they hurt a lot more than any of my 5Ks or 10Ks. Are people like Clayton Murphy supposed to man up and run the 10000 instead of the 800?

And what about the club and unattached sprinters who're running the 100 in an open meet? Is it a "crock of sh!t" since they're paying $25 to run for 11 seconds?

most guys have speed wrote:

4:59 wrote:

They have plenty of these races--and there for kids ten and under! Man up already. I'm not paying 25-100 dollars to run for 3 or 4 minutes or ten minutes for that matter. What a crock of sh^t!!!!

I don't get this logic. I've run a good amount of 800s, and they hurt a lot more than any of my 5Ks or 10Ks. Are people like Clayton Murphy supposed to man up and run the 10000 instead of the 800?

And what about the club and unattached sprinters who're running the 100 in an open meet? Is it a "crock of sh!t" since they're paying $25 to run for 11 seconds?

I don't get this logic. Your commenting on a post you either didn't read or can't comprehend. Read the post I was responding to. He said "we need more shorter distance races on the roads". He was not talking about track. Since you brought it up, when is the last time Clayton Murphy paid his own entry fee. No it isn't a crock of sh!t to pay $25 to run for 11 seconds if were talking about track. Murphy's already manned up and run longer races on the road.

4:59 wrote:

I'm not paying 25-100 dollars to run for 3 or 4 minutes or ten minutes for that matter. What a crock of sh^t!!!!

Why don't you just jog your next 5K instead of running it all-out? That way, you can pay $30 to run for 30 minutes instead of paying $30 to run for only 15 minutes.

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

let's get this started! wrote:

Just separate everyone based on times. You could have a schedule like this:

Heat 1 - seed times under 4:30, starts at 9:00 AM

Heat 2 - seed times from 4:30-4:49, starts at 9:03 AM

Heat 3 - seed times from 4:50-5:09, starts at 9:06 AM

Heat 4 - seed times from 5:10-5:29, starts at 9:09 AM

Add more heats as necessary to keep the heat sizes manageable. Sure, you'll get some people who'll exaggerate their seed times, but having three 5:10 guys in the sub 4:30 heat won't cause an injury hazard to anyone, nor will the following heat have to deal with overtaking them.

The volume zone in a hobby jogger mile race is something like 6-9 minutes. You can put all runners under 5 min in the first corral. And yes, 8:30 milers starting in the 6:00-6:30 corral would create a serious safety problem.

Most of the local and regional road miles that I have run, and it's been quite a few, have been age group heats, which I believe is best for competition. From start to finish you know exactly where you stack up with respect to your age group peers, and it provides a little bit of opportunity for strategy. Generally, the top five or so performers in an age group know each other unless a ringer shows up from out of town. Sometimes the two genders each have their own heat per age group, sometimes the two genders are together in an age group, which can be really interesting when the sub 6 female masters runners show up.

If you personally believe enough people would show up for such a race and you would like to see those types of races happen, I encourage you to organize and direct them yourself.

I do not believe shorter road races will appeal to the vast majority of hobby joggers that do 5k 10k and other road races.

That majority never ran track or xc when they were younger. Or maybe they did and they quit because they were not good at it (they were slow), Or they know they are relatively slow now and do not want to be reminded of it by running an all out mile in 9-10 minutes or so,

A big thing many adult hobby joggers value from running is burning calories for weight control. Without considering elevated metabolic rate that lingers after very hard efforts, runners only burn x number of calories running a one mile race, but burn 6x+ calories running a 10k race. So those concerned with burning calories will favor the longer race.

There is also an odd sense of perceived value when entering races. Race directors will charge about the same fee for a one mile road race as they would for a 5K. So the perceived value per mile is three times better for the 5K.

Many hobby joggers only have one pace and would be disappointed to pay $30 to run a mile race in 9:20 when they could otherwise run a 5k in 29:30. Hobby joggers rarely warm up before races and use the early parts of longer races as a warm up. In a mile race it would be disappointing for them when the race ended at just about the time they were finally warmed up and feeling good.

Hobby joggers never train to run fast and so trying to do so in a shorter race is relatively more uncomfortable and painful than a longer race.

You are right, it does hurt to run a mile. But we have a downtown mile every July and we get lots of participants from 8 to 80. Some years I have run two heats, one with the masters and one with the open men. Then we drink beer and eat pizza. I t is a fantastic event!

5 and 10ks are up to 60-70$, up from $20 when I started running20 years ago (yikes), and up from $40 a few years ago. Who is going to pay that much except for the biggest races. I think even a turkey trot was over 40 last year.

All the smaller races didn't come back because with those kind of prices it wasn't economical to hold them. I suspect a lot of this money is profit for the race director, but instead of trying to offer a quality experience at a lower cost everyone is charging this much now including new races because there is no guarantee they'll get a big enough field to pay their costs at a lower price.

I see very few races with prize purses either - even the la marathon is only offering $5000 to the winner. Our sport needs to be streamed through pay per view methods or ads, not subscriptions for it to become bigger time.

Roadrunner honey wrote:

I can't imagine that anybody older than 20 would show up there. The reason why 5k and 10k races are successful is because good runners and hobby runners can show up and enjoy it.

Michigan: Dart For Art Ann Arbor 1,000+ Clawson 4th of July 1,200+ (pre Corona) , Crim Flint (when USATF masters were also held there) 1,000+.

Iowa: 2022 Drake Relays Blue Mile should have 1,500 plus. Guardian Mile in Cleveland 500-1000

Vastly more popular than you would think they would be.

18rabbitskiing wrote:

I have started to see more and more mile races than I used to and think that is great and would love to be able to run shorter distances but I don't think there's that much demand. Virtually none of my high school and college track teammates actually ran track after college sans the handful who know that we are in our 40s are who are interested in the masters scene.

You're right that most former high school and college track runners don't run track after college. But that's because they don't want to race any distance, not because they don't want to race the 100/200/400/800/1500/mile. Most of my former track teammates are either sedentary, picked up other sports/hobbies, or are just jogging for health reasons and have no intention of ever racing again.

The few people who do want to race after college either want to keep racing the same distances as they did when they were in school, or want to try something shorter for a change. One of my friends was a 200/400 sprinter in HS and college who moved down to the 60/100/200 after graduation. But even though they want to race short distances, they're kind of "forced" to do the local 5K road race or not race at all since shorter distance races are hard to find, whether they are on the roads or on the track.

I think it would be cool but not as short as you’re saying. Maybe a series of 2k-4k races would be successful, that’s a good combination of speed and endurance but still long enough to be “worth it” like some other posters were saying and fairly easy for non runners or more recreational runners to accomplish. And it would have to be a series with cumulative points, I seriously doubt a stand-alone 2-4k race would ever see much success. It may also work better as short cross country rather than short road races but the thread is about road racing so I guess that is irrelevant.