Yes, I had the same thought. That seems like a weird metric for recovery. I could believe massage helps loosen muscles up and help with running economy, but is that recovery?
This threw me also. Also, I have coached a lot of runners that have very different biomechanics while on a treadmill.
A topic for a different thread, but agree 100% that biomechanics can be different on a treadmill or alter G. May lead to injury or decreased efficiency.
A study that finds a difference in "stride height" or "stride angle" or any difference in stride after various modes of recovery is definitely not using well-trained runners. In a well-trained runner, there will be no discernible difference in any case, unless they are injured.
It is interesting to note that some of the greatest runners in history never iced. I never iced as a runner, but I did so several times after a football game and it does help with soreness. I didn't read the report, but it seems to me that icing is perhaps helpful for your legs immediately after a hard workout to recover quicker. I am speaking in terms of how it makes you feel, but I don't think it has any long term therapeutic or performance benefits. I made ice baths available but never mandatory during mu coaching days. I've had some good athletes who did it fairly regularly, but 2 of the best athletes I ever coached never did. I know for a fact that a proper massage prior to a race helps.
I was taught that there needs to be a discernible reason for why something "works". What is the mechanism that makes massage effective? Assuming this holds up under replication.
The CWI is interesting with the best advice I have seen is using it at certain times during a training cycle such as during a competitive season. The inflammation from training has ergogenic effects that CWI seem to impair.
As with any study one can find issues with it. The first thing is that I had never thought of looking at stride height and angle changes as something indicative of recovery. Alas, I don't read as much in this area as I once did either.
Also, while the differences may be statistically significant, are they physiologically significant? That is do the differences mean anything in real life performance.
I am a big fan of massage. I find them enjoyable for the most part. I’ve also tried 광명출장안마, but cannot say the same for CWI! The usual claims are suspect, especially the ones about "flushing toxins" and "removing lactic acid". (If you do nothing, the lactate will return to normal levels in a few hours, so does shortening that by half mean anything for most who do not train 2x a day)?
Let's see if someone can replicate the findings. It is pretty amazing how often the results cannot be replicated.
Massage works mainly by improving circulation, reducing muscle tension, and activating the nervous system to decrease perceived soreness and stress. The benefits are mostly neurological and subjective, including relaxation, improved range of motion, and feeling recovered, rather than flushing toxins or directly enhancing performance.
This post was edited 21 seconds after it was posted.
I was taught that there needs to be a discernible reason for why something "works". What is the mechanism that makes massage effective? Assuming this holds up under replication.
The CWI is interesting with the best advice I have seen is using it at certain times during a training cycle such as during a competitive season. The inflammation from training has ergogenic effects that CWI seem to impair.
As with any study one can find issues with it. The first thing is that I had never thought of looking at stride height and angle changes as something indicative of recovery. Alas, I don't read as much in this area as I once did either.
Also, while the differences may be statistically significant, are they physiologically significant? That is do the differences mean anything in real life performance.
I am a big fan of massage. I find them enjoyable for the most part. I’ve also tried 광명출장안마, but cannot say the same for CWI! The usual claims are suspect, especially the ones about "flushing toxins" and "removing lactic acid". (If you do nothing, the lactate will return to normal levels in a few hours, so does shortening that by half mean anything for most who do not train 2x a day)?
Let's see if someone can replicate the findings. It is pretty amazing how often the results cannot be replicated.
Massage works mainly by improving circulation, reducing muscle tension, and activating the nervous system to decrease perceived soreness and stress. The benefits are mostly neurological and subjective, including relaxation, improved range of motion, and feeling recovered, rather than flushing toxins or directly enhancing performance.
bumped thread but people have always believed in ice because it numbs the pain and reduces swelling.
Because it numbs the pain, they are subconsciously fooled, to the point where they will invent non-falsifiable theories that it helps the injury heal faster.
The placebo effect complicates this phenomenon. But intelligent people can reason their way out of it and understand that chilling away the swelling and pain didn't actually repair anything. About 50% of people can guard against about 50% of their wishful thinking.
Only about 10% of people have the self-discipline to never be fooled by their own emotions. Probably one of them invented the ice bath and made millions
The study, which was published in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, included 48 well-trained male runners to perform three workouts. First, they did an exhaustive interval workout followed by an incremental treadmill test 24 hours later at three speeds: 12, 14, and 16 km/h. They then received either a massage, cold water immersion (i.e. ice bath) or passive rest as a control. 48 hours later, they repeated the treadmill test.
The researchers found that the runners who received massage had recovered significantly better than the control group, and had greater stride height and angle changes as they sped up. The runners who received an ice bath, on the other hand, did not appear to experience any noticeable changes compared to the control group. “These results suggest that massage intervention promotes faster recovery of RE (running economy) and running biomechanics than CWI (cold water therapy) or passive rest,” the researcher concluded.
Well, a 4 years old thread by you Rojo and similar conclusion had a Swedish sceintific study on this with how to best speed up recovery. They found out ice bath infact makes the recovery slower due to the blood stream at the muscles will be interrupted( less) . Massage on the other hand speeds up recovery.🧙♂️
Yea, that's pretty true. Lydiard very nearly figured out the perfect training program through trial and error with hardly any scientific backing whatsoever. It's funny how that happens.
I see you don't know about Lydiard. He had the scientific backing.
What I thinkJBaller33 means to say is that Lydiard did not sit down with pen and paper and deduce his programme from first principles using the scientific method. He worked out, using his "real world" experience what methods worked. He didn't know what LT1, LT2 V02 max etc. were at the time. Years later the physiologists explained why his programme was so successful.
If anything I think that makes him even more of a genius.
My gym converted one of the hot tubs into a cold plunge a few months ago. Loving it, I hate the cold but I have gotten used to it. Cold plunge then hot tub after workouts. Feel great! Good times.
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