https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/very wise old man wrote:
Monkeys Skyping wrote:
The issue with alternative treatments is not that they are all necessarily ineffective, it is that they are generally brought into the conversation as alternatives to the vaccinations and approved treatments, the use and effectiveness of which are much more well established.
What are some of the approved treatments for covid? And don't say "vaccines" because that's not a treatment.
Let’s put this to rest and have a panel of physicians on BOTH sides of this debate and challenge each other. Dismissing these points dies nothing to further science. Lets get Fauci/Birx up in front of Atlas, Malone, Bhattacharya and Makary. Hash it out! Why has this not been done?
^^When seniors attack.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/supplements/vitamin-d/fisky wrote:
. . . Since doctors/Fauci will NOT tell you about early treatments, you need to be proactive and learn about them yourself. I'm not saying that vitamin D is a miracle cure.
Ok. I edited my initial post to make it clear that an unvaccinated person sent me the link and I"m wondering what scientists think of it so I can write him back and help him do the safest thing.
The substack article is basically post modernism in science. The rules of double blind trials and other measures that are used to determine whether something is medically effective are tossed out and everyone just gets to pick what they think works based on whatever socially constructed evidence that makes them feel good. And this is how disinformation works. It shifts the burden of proof onto those who live in the world of science by making unfounded assertions and basically saying "it is right until you prove me wrong". And even when proven wrong, the peddlers of disinformation just keep going because they know that the internet and social media give them access to millions who want an alternative narrative to vaccines, masks and social distancing and that these people will not do any research.
this is just what i come to this running messageboard for: non-running related fact checking with anonymous, unverified and definitely questionable 'experts' on serious medical issues
love that the owner of the website treats this like his personal facebook, too, super profesh
rojo wrote:
Ok. I edited my initial post to make it clear that an unvaccinated person sent me the link and I"m wondering what scientists think of it so I can write him back and help him do the safest thing.
Revisionist, gaslighting BS. You posted this here to spread your misinformation BS, NOT to help an anti-vaxxer “see the light”
Reading threads like this takes me back to the first time I learned that a percentage of the population are gullible and have no desire to learn truth. I was 17 years old and I met my first person that truly, literally,100% without question believed that WWF (Wrestling ) was real. I had previously thought people knew it was fake but were enjoying the theatrics.
It was truly bizzaro world listening to this guy claim that WWF guy could beat up so and so. And that this wwf guy was a good guy and this WWF guy was a bad guy. He was lost in his fantasy with no desire to escape. We are right in the same thing with this pandemic. Millions of people "just asking questions" and doing their own research.
Jiminycricket wrote:
Let’s put this to rest and have a panel of physicians on BOTH sides of this debate and challenge each other. Dismissing these points dies nothing to further science. Lets get Fauci/Birx up in front of Atlas, Malone, Bhattacharya and Makary. Hash it out! Why has this not been done?
It has.
There is every major group of physicians, thousands of practicing physicians, all working hard to treat their patients. Thousands of researchers working hard to conduct sound clinical trials for prophylactics and therapies. And then there are a handful of folks who aren't but want to feel important anyway.
This debate would have 10,000 people on one side and a dozen on the other.
Artie Lange wrote:
Dude, think about how you'd feel about a flat-earther "asking questions" about the earth being round.
That's akin to what you are doing with this crap.
This is exactly right. And the truth is, how easy is it for any individual here to actually DEMONSTRATE that the earth is, in fact, round rather than flat? It would take more time than I'm willing to devote in order to satisfy the demands of someone who is "just asking questions." As another poster pointed out, it takes wayyy more effort to debunk junk science than it does to spread it.
Rojo, the reason people are criticizing you is that you're in the fortunate position of having a great education and access to a highly educated network of people. Surely you know lots of doctors, and perhaps even some biomedical researchers. Do you really think that they're all part of some broad conspiracy to suppress effective treatments in order to pad their bottom line?
Ultimately, for complicated ideas, you have two basic choices. You can seek out trustworthy experts, or you can master the material yourself - a process that may take years. The loss of public trust in expertise is one of the big trends of the past two decades, and it's a serious and complicated issue. But deciding "I no longer trust the experts, so instead I'm going to read a blog post by some guy who couldn't even get into medical school in the U.S." is not a good alternative. You want to do your own research? Great, go for it. But the universe doesn't guarantee that the answers are easy. If I want to understand astrophysics, I'm unlikely to be able to double-check the calculations and observations made by astrophysicists unless I spend literally years learning about it. It'll be much easier to read some blog posts by astrologers instead, but that doesn't mean they're right or useful.
Precious Roy wrote:
The substack article is basically post modernism in science. The rules of double blind trials and other measures that are used to determine whether something is medically effective are tossed out and everyone just gets to pick what they think works based on whatever socially constructed evidence that makes them feel good. And this is how disinformation works. It shifts the burden of proof onto those who live in the world of science by making unfounded assertions and basically saying "it is right until you prove me wrong". And even when proven wrong, the peddlers of disinformation just keep going because they know that the internet and social media give them access to millions who want an alternative narrative to vaccines, masks and social distancing and that these people will not do any research.
I get what you are saying, but it's very hard to know who to trust.
What I don't like about the whole Covid-19 thing is people act like those who won't get vaccinated are 100% automatically really stupid and evil. Do people not understand why many people are skeptical? While I think they are wrong, I get where the sentiment comes from.
Let me share an anecdote.
This morning, I read an article from last week's WSJ that was sitting on my breakfast table (hadn't had time to get to it last week). If people wonder why there is widespread vaccination doubt, all you need to do is read this article. It's about Biogen's new Alzheimer's drug Aduhlem.
Check this out.
WSJ wrote:
For more than a decade, Biogen Inc.worked on a new drug for Alzheimer’s disease that seemed to have blockbuster potential.
Early results were so impressive that Biogen raced toward regulatory approval—a risky gambit that drove up the stock as investors anticipated sales of the first approved drug in nearly two decades to slow the advancement of a disease affecting six million Americans.
Then Biogen changed its mind. The company made an unusual decision to abruptly stop its trials and declare that the drug didn’t work—then reversed course and said the drug did work after all.
The Food and Drug Administration approved the drug in June under a program that fast-tracks promising treatments, despite disagreements within the agency over its efficacy.
The result is a pricey therapy now on the market, Aduhelm, that regulators say isn’t fully proven to work against Alzheimer’s disease. Many patients aren’t taking it because doctors are reluctant to prescribe Aduhelm and Medicare hasn’t decided if it will pay for the drug.
Biogen launched Aduhelm in June at a price of $56,000 a year, only to backtrack in December and cut the price in half to quell backlash over the price....
Harvard Professor of Medicine Aaron Kesselheim, who was on the outside-adviser committee and resigned from it to protest the approval, in his resignation letter called it “probably the worst drug approval decision in recent U.S. history.” Dr. Kesselheim in an email said he objected to the approval because Aduhelm “has no clear evidence of efficacy plus the very real risk of potentially serious harms” and because the FDA’s “process was problematic due to the last-minute switch to accelerated approval.”
So a really important drug was determined to be futile by the company that makes it. They then changed their mind and decide to sell it - for $56,000 . The FDA approves the sale of the drug as long as more studies are done on it- so basically the FDA is admitting they aren't sure it works.
Do people not realize the impact decisions like this have long term on people's faith in the whole FDA/CDC system?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/biogen-fda-aduhelm-alzheimers-drug-approval-11641327408https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/21/health/aduhelm-alzheimers-drug.htmlPS. From reading a little more, it seems clear if the drug was going to be approved, it should have only been approved to a very narrow subset of Alzheimer's patients, not all of them.
Alzheimer's is an invariably fatal disease.
Patients are often "lost" well before they actually die. Their quality of life is often very low and the impact on caregivers is HUGE.
Patients, families, etc are clamoring for any hope. The people who might take this drug are demanding it in spite of the risks and efficacy concerns.
The data do indicate some benefit, perhaps low or for fewer than desirable, but for a fatal disease with no options, the bar can be lower. It ok.
The maker is required to conduct ongoing efficacy testing.
In case many of you don't know, the CDC has a very incestuous relationship with Big Pharma as many influential MD's who used to work for the CDC now work for Big Pharma. Any wonder why there are "break through " infections with covid? In 2017 , in the Philippines, 700,000 children were vaxed for Dengue fever with a vaccine called Dengvaxia. NPR (!) reported that the mass immunization campaign was suspended due to "safety concerns" as this vaccine raised the risk of a deadly form of dengue for people who had never been exposed to the virus. Dr. Scott Halstead, a researcher stated , "It's happened. We have a vaccine that enhances dengue."
stan the corgi wrote:
In case many of you don't know, the CDC has a very incestuous relationship with Big Pharma as many influential MD's who used to work for the CDC now work for Big Pharma. Any wonder why there are "break through " infections with covid? In 2017 , in the Philippines, 700,000 children were vaxed for Dengue fever with a vaccine called Dengvaxia. NPR (!) reported that the mass immunization campaign was suspended due to "safety concerns" as this vaccine raised the risk of a deadly form of dengue for people who had never been exposed to the virus. Dr. Scott Halstead, a researcher stated , "It's happened. We have a vaccine that enhances dengue."
Sometimes bad things happen, mistakes get made, etc. The real world is not perfect. Therefore it is all one giant CONSPIRACY!!!
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!
very wise old man wrote:
A professor at one of the top two medical schools in the country who doesn't know how to spell "peddles" correctly?
Ouch.
True….and true….I’m genuinely poor at spelling and typing accuracy. Tripped up by both all of the time.
Timothy Foyle wrote:
stan the corgi wrote:
In case many of you don't know, the CDC has a very incestuous relationship with Big Pharma as many influential MD's who used to work for the CDC now work for Big Pharma. Any wonder why there are "break through " infections with covid? In 2017 , in the Philippines, 700,000 children were vaxed for Dengue fever with a vaccine called Dengvaxia. NPR (!) reported that the mass immunization campaign was suspended due to "safety concerns" as this vaccine raised the risk of a deadly form of dengue for people who had never been exposed to the virus. Dr. Scott Halstead, a researcher stated , "It's happened. We have a vaccine that enhances dengue."
Sometimes bad things happen, mistakes get made, etc. The real world is not perfect. Therefore it is all one giant CONSPIRACY!!!
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!
Lol. Obviously you're going to run right towards the CDC and pharma. Makes perfect sense. Run little one run!!
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