The origin of plated 'spring' shoes

Hey not bad. So that's the international application (PCT) that you posted, which basically provides an opportunity to then file in particular countries in addition to the original country where it was filed (the US).

You can see the "Priority Data" in box 30, where "60/116,075" (provisional application, basically a 1 year placeholder) and 09/479,522" (the actual non-provisional, utility application that the examiner reviews) refers to the US application which was later issued in fact, as patent 6,231,946 on May 15, 2001. It expired in June 2013, prior to the end of term due to failure to pay maintenance fees to the PTO.

So yeah, I'm rambling a bit but I don't have time to take a deep dive and see if it was ever filed in any other countries, nor do I know offhand why they wouldn't pony up the relatively meager amount to maintain the US patent.

If one spent the time to compare this with the other patents in the field, I'm sure that there are some functional distinctions, but that said, these guys should have probably hung on to their patent as there would almost certainly have been some avenues to monetization.

Hey, connoisseur,

Seems you have seen proof of Milliman's claim that there is a patent. I didn't know myself but didn't have any reason to doubt what he said. Perhaps I should clear something up about this thread and why I started it.

I came across this guy Joe's pod. I think I saw it mentioned in the comments on Nate Jenkins' blog. I think Nate is very knowledgeable about marathon training. I, and more importantly he, admit he neither is nor was the world's greatest marathoner. The fact that he ran better than he ever expected to and many much more talented guys have not is why I respect his opinion on what training works and what doesn't for that particular event. I jumped at the chance to hear another interview with him.

I saw some other guests whom I wanted to hear and listened to them. I also noticed some whom I was not familiar with. Jeff Milliman was in that category. I believe he and Joe go back a ways and know each other in real life. I am surprised how often I hear something that could teach me a lesson about the marathon. So I play it.

It was interesting to hear someone from Jeff's generation. His peers were runners I knew of and admired. They were the guys winning races when I was trying to win my (young) age group. A few interesting stories get told, a few names that I remember get mentioned. Then Joe changes the subject and says,

"So you have a patent, right?" or something to that effect. Maybe he said "had" - past tense - although I don't remember it that way.

Jeff goes into the story which prompted the creation of this thread. He talks about the plates. Carbon and fiberglass were the materials most mentioned, but not the only ones tried. He and his collaborators figured out the direction the fibers had to run, epoxies to hold things together that did and didn't work, different shapes, etc. He made one that, if I was picturing it accurately was wavy when viewed from the side. Then, another was stacked on top of that. In my mental picture, they touched such that the bottom of the wave on the top plate touched the top of the wave on the bottom plate.

Fascinating stuff, I thought. This is directed toward some of the readers of this thread who have not heard of the guy (as I hadn't) but also haven't heard him talk (and may object to something):

As far as I could tell, he is not angry. He blames nobody for anything. He makes no grandiose claims about his stature in the running shoe business. He does not claim that he owns every company currently making running shoes. He does not grudgingly admit to not owning them but go on to say they all owe him millions. Again, this was my perception based on what he literally said as well as tone of voice, etc. that could suggest the mood he was in while talking about all of this. Jeff Milliman simply is not to shoe design what JS is to coaching. Believe me, he doesn't sound bitter.

Neither the podcast interview nor this thread were intended to be a competition. I am one-upping nobody. Neither is Milliman himself. Why there have been negative reactions to the thread is a mystery to me. Maybe one of you could do this:

You can contact him through his running shop's website.

www.greenvillerunningcompany.com

I already tried to get through. Maybe someone can convince him to come here and tell the story. I don't know if he would or wouldn't, but I can say this:

Jeff seems like a guy I would hope to be sitting with at a table at The Wild Duck. I'm saying he seems cool and it would be great if he tells us what he did and when. It is a good story.

Brojos, you could likely get an interview and write a feature about the concept of somewhat rigid but flexible and rebounding midsole materials and the early development of the idea(s).

Hello - I'm Joe, the host of the podcast. First, to make it easier for anyone interested to hear exactly what Jeff said on this topic, I made the portion of the podcast you're talking about into a shorter youtube clip - and I used a photo of Jeff's patent as the background (link below).

Second, I also think it would be cool for Jeff to be able to address some of the questions brought up in this thread, and go deeper into this part of his story. I thought it would be fun to record another podcast interview with him where we go through the comments in this thread and have him address all these things - tell more of his story, and the story of what other manufacturers have done, the evolution of current technology, etc. He has so many cool stories, I could really turn the whole podcast into the Jeff Milliman show. But he is very busy with his store so it's not easy to find time to sit down. For anyone curious, check out his Instagram - @gvillerun - he has told many of his stories on there. Anyways, If I were able to record another podcast with him, let me know if there are any specific questions you'd want to ask.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=123LmYLHNFw

JoeSell wrote:

Hello - I'm Joe, the host of the podcast.

Yes dude it is abundantly clear that you created this thread

Also, read a few other posts and you will be less suprised at the types of replies your post got.

Hey Joe,

OP here. I was surprised to see this thread bumped back up to the first page. It was great to see that you found it and posted. It would be very cool to hear more from this guy. I'll confess I hadn't heard of him prior to your pod, but agree that he has many a good story just from what I've heard. I'd like to hear him respond to the doubters and naysayers. It doesn't surprise me that I got ridiculed and mocked for attempting to drive readers to his story. The poster suggesting that kind of thing is normal on the Message Board is exactly right. By the way, I'm not Joe!

Etonic had a shoe, the Alpha, in ~1982 with a graphite plate in it's heel. Brooks had a shoe with a full length plate, I forget if it was carbon or graphite based, in approx 1994 called the Brooks Fusion. The entire advertising thing was that it like a pole used by a pole vaulter. EXACTLY what the current plated shoes do today.

It's kind of funny, but really not surprising, I suppose, that I couldn't get anyone to listen to the link I posted -as far as I can tell anyway. Joe, it would be great if you get Jeff to give us more. Hopefully your edited clip gets listeners. Right out of the gate, some readers thought I was asking a question, so they gave their opinions on who invented what. It seems they viewed this topic as some sort of contest.

Others grasped that I was basically saying I believe I found out who conceived and pioneered some of the (seemingly very modern, in the public mind) ideas people are excited about lately. However, it seems some of them thought I was referring to an angry, bitter, bankrupt guy who has a Phil Knight dartboard or something. Let's get him to come and explain that he is not blaming and accusing, but rather telling a story that is very interesting now that we are firmly in the super-shoe era.

By the way Joe, how did you find out this thread existed?

A few thoughts about this US patent:

(1) the broadest claims reads as follows:

1. A structural reinforcement comprising:

a double corrugated structural reinforcement in the form of an open gridwork comprising a pair of gridwork elements, each gridwork element being defined by strands extending in a first direction and strands extending in a second direction transverse to said first direction and being impregnated substantially throughout with a thermosettable B-stage or fully cured thermoset resin;

said strands in said first direction being corrugated to define high and low portions, and said strands in said second direction being substantially straight;

said pair of gridwork elements being fixedly connected in opposed face-to-face relationship;

said first and second strands of said gridwork elements being oriented in like directions, respectively, and said high and low portions facing each other in opposing relation so as to define a cavity between each of said opposing high portions of said corrugated strands;

elongation of said reinforcement being allowed in said first direction by said first corrugated strands and being substantially prevented in said second direction by said second straight strands; and

said gridwork elements each comprising at least one continuous filament selected from the group consisting of glass, carbon, and aramid.

If a competitive shoe's plate does not have each and every one of the above elements, then it does not infringe. I'm not aware of any current plated shoe that fits the above description. Hence, the value of this patent may have been minimal.

(2) The maintenance fee required to keep the patent active after 12 years was more than "meager" -- it was still a few thousand dollars back in 2012/2013 when it was due. If these guys didn't have a licensee by then, they probably didn't think it was worth throwing good money after bad.

(3) Even if you have a patent, it doesn't license or enforce itself. A patentee has to spend time and money (often considerable amounts) on licensing negotiations and possibly litigation to extract value from the patent. Even if a shoe company arguably infringed this patent (but see point 1 above), it could take hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to enforce it.

Jeff actually found out about this thread and sent it to me yesterday. Also, I realized the youtube clip I posted yesterday didn't include the part where he talked about his patent and his effort to monetize the idea, etc, so I'm including an extended clip below that covers that part of the interview as well (link below).

I agree with OP assessment that he's not a bitter guy trying to throw stones or take undue credit - he's simply telling his true story that is in fact very fascinating. I would like to ask him about all the shoes people are mentioning on this thread - I'm sure he would know the story behind most of them, and would be interesting to find out more about where exactly his work fit in and how it related to all the other companies' technologies. He also has lots of other stories that would be fun to get recorded from his competitive running days and all his interactions with guys like Marty Liquori, Craig Virgin, Bill Rogers, etc. I'll keep you posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ40ZciFmV0

Oh, he saw it before you. That might be because I reached out through the store's site and tipped him off. Tried to anyway: I wasn't sure if the message was seen or read. I realize he's running a business and time is not always plentiful. That could be how he found out.

By the way, I've listened to quite a few of your interviews. I appreciate that you tend to bring up sugar/glucose/glycogen as a potential problem and limiting factor. Nate Jenkins convinced me that it is a bigger deal than one might think given the attention and discussion it gets. That, and specific training (as opposed to training for a 10k then adding slowing runs) are why he finished ahead of guys that "have no business losing to me over any distance" and such.

Sounds like you have been convinced of the same. In general I've enjoyed the series. Maybe we'll get a little more shoe talk, too. Anyway, thanks for coming here and posting Joe!