I really think he had more in the final and got kinda psyched out by the quality of the field. He had the fastest close of the whole field - not saying he could have hung with Jakob or Tim C but I think if he trusted himself more going into that final (he's j 20 after all) and put himself in a better place at the bell he could have challenged for that third spot.
Psyched by what he's going to do in Eugene and beyond.
:(((((( wrote:
I really think he had more in the final and got kinda psyched out by the quality of the field. He had the fastest close of the whole field - not saying he could have hung with Jakob or Tim C but I think if he trusted himself more going into that final (he's j 20 after all) and put himself in a better place at the bell he could have challenged for that third spot.
Psyched by what he's going to do in Eugene and beyond.
Fastest closer of the whole field?
No. Try again.
Josh Kerr was faster than Hocker from both 400 and 200 out.
Hocker will have Jakob, a much healthier Cheryot, and a very motivated Kerr to deal with, not to mention domestically, a very talented Hobbs Kessler and a Naguse with a new very large chip on his shoulder.
Should be fun.
Flagpole wrote:
rorimc wrote:
Yeah well you might be special if you think Hocker will win an Olympic gold medal as Centro has though. But seriously the only reason Centro was losing to Hocker was age. We shall see. It is very easy to label people. Falcon was special too.
We were talking about TIMES, not medals. Winning a gold medal is a great achievement, but it really only depends on the competition you have that day. Hocker could end up being a better runner than Centrowitz and never win ANY Olympic medal.
Hocker will have better PRs than Centrowitz. Jeebus.
...the competition you have that day. ???
You do realize the 2016 1500 Oly finals included the World record holder, right?
Kiprop, Makloufi, Souliman, Willis, Kwemoi....all 3:28 and faster guys.
Centro smoked em all from 400 out including Mak who can run 1:41.
Until Hocker is performing at that level, he is not "more accomplished" than Centro.
The world 1500m record holder last raced in 2004.
If Kerr, a 3:35 college runner, can get to 3:29, why can't Hocker, a 3:31 guy at 20, get to the top? He has every chance to do that, but you can't put it in terms of 10%/50%, etc., because it's unknowable, and in real world cases of similar credentials and seasons with big breakthroughs, sometimes they regress, sometimes they stay the same (Filip Ingebrigtsen, for instance, ran 3:30.01 several years ago and hasn't yet broken 3:30), and sometimes they continue to drop a lot of time (Jakob Ingebrigtsen, 3:39 to 3:31 to 3:28).
UhmNo wrote:
:(((((( wrote:
I really think he had more in the final and got kinda psyched out by the quality of the field. He had the fastest close of the whole field - not saying he could have hung with Jakob or Tim C but I think if he trusted himself more going into that final (he's j 20 after all) and put himself in a better place at the bell he could have challenged for that third spot.
Psyched by what he's going to do in Eugene and beyond.
Fastest closer of the whole field?
No. Try again.
Josh Kerr was faster than Hocker from both 400 and 200 out.
Hocker will have Jakob, a much healthier Cheryot, and a very motivated Kerr to deal with, not to mention domestically, a very talented Hobbs Kessler and a Naguse with a new very large chip on his shoulder.
Should be fun.
and i think jakob had the second fastest close.
three fastest closers:
Jakob: 400-54.42; 300- 40.72; 200-27.12; 100-13.62
Josh : 400- 54.15; 300-40.65; 200-27.15; 100-13.65
Hocker: 400- 54.8; 300-41.1; 200-27.4; 100-13.9
:(((((( wrote:
not saying he could have hung with Jakob or Tim C but I think if he trusted himself more going into that final (he's j 20 after all) and put himself in a better place at the bell he could have challenged for that third spot.
So Cheruiyot at 3:29.01 was out of reach, but he could have beaten Kerr’s 3:29.05. Got it.
Here are the credentials of the 1983 World Championship men's 5000m field:
For context, the world record was David Moorcroft 13:00.41 1982. Maree two years later came close with 13:01 and Aouita first broke 13 with 12:58 in 1987. This was a strong field but not arguably weaker than the 1500m. On the other hand, the 1500m runners did not typically have better 5000m credentials at the time.
1. Eamonn Coghlan 1:47.8/3:36/3:49.8i/7:37.6/13:19
2. Werner Schildhauer 3:38/7:50/13:12/27:24
3. Martti Vainio 3:41/7:46/13:20/27:30
4. Dimitriy Dimitriev 1:47.7/3:36/7:42/13:17
5. Doug Padilla 3:37.95/7:35.84! (July 9, 1983)/13:15
6. Thomas Wessinghage 1:46/3:31/7:36/13:12
7. Wodajo Bulti (ETH) 3:40/7:40/13:07.29/27:29/2:08:44
8. Dietmar Millonig 3:38/7:43/13:15/27:42
9. Paul Kipkoech (KEN) 3:41/7:39/13:14/27:38 (27:31 road in Bali (prob an inaccurate course)
10. Antonio Leitao 3:41/7:39/13:07.7/8:26 steeple
11. Valeriy Abramov 1:47.9/3:36.8/7:46.8/13:11.99/27:55
12. Markus Ryffel 3:38/7:41/13:07.54/27:54
13. Salvatore Antibo 3:43/7:43/13:05.59 1990 /27:16.50 1989 His pr's were way after this race
14. Julian Goater 7:48/13:15/27:34/43:05 15KM
15. Anatoliy Krokmalayuk 7:48/13:21
so kerr was slightly faster than jakob from 400 and 300 out, while Jakob was microscopicly faster than kerr from 200 and 100 out.
Jakob with the underrated kick.
zcxvxczv wrote:
Here are the credentials of the 1983 World Championship men's 5000m field:
For context, the world record was David Moorcroft 13:00.41 1982. Maree two years later came close with 13:01 and Aouita first broke 13 with 12:58 in 1987. This was a strong field but not arguably weaker than the 1500m. On the other hand, the 1500m runners did not typically have better 5000m credentials at the time.
1. Eamonn Coghlan 1:47.8/3:36/3:49.8i/7:37.6/13:19
2. Werner Schildhauer 3:38/7:50/13:12/27:24
3. Martti Vainio 3:41/7:46/13:20/27:30
4. Dimitriy Dimitriev 1:47.7/3:36/7:42/13:17
5. Doug Padilla 3:37.95/7:35.84! (July 9, 1983)/13:15
6. Thomas Wessinghage 1:46/3:31/7:36/13:12
7. Wodajo Bulti (ETH) 3:40/7:40/13:07.29/27:29/2:08:44
8. Dietmar Millonig 3:38/7:43/13:15/27:42
9. Paul Kipkoech (KEN) 3:41/7:39/13:14/27:38 (27:31 road in Bali (prob an inaccurate course)
10. Antonio Leitao 3:41/7:39/13:07.7/8:26 steeple
11. Valeriy Abramov 1:47.9/3:36.8/7:46.8/13:11.99/27:55
12. Markus Ryffel 3:38/7:41/13:07.54/27:54
13. Salvatore Antibo 3:43/7:43/13:05.59 1990 /27:16.50 1989 His pr's were way after this race
14. Julian Goater 7:48/13:15/27:34/43:05 15KM
15. Anatoliy Krokmalayuk 7:48/13:21
This is so DISHONEST. Why would you lie like this? Almost NONE of these runners were close to the top of their performance levels so you are lying. It would be as if one were to say that somebody defeated a 3:26 runner in Bernard Lagat when he could only run 3:33.
He's earned respect. I'm glad he's not settling.
Agree with this take. Hocker has a great kick and likely has more room for improvement given relatively low mileage and 3:31 capability already at age 20. I truly hope he considers more international competition, it seems like too few American runners take advantage of overseas races. But overall I’m very excited for his prospects. The fact that many are already comparing him with Centro is favorable for Hocker.
raging clue wrote:
Agree with this take. Hocker has a great kick and likely has more room for improvement given relatively low mileage and 3:31 capability already at age 20. I truly hope he considers more international competition, it seems like too few American runners take advantage of overseas races. But overall I’m very excited for his prospects. The fact that many are already comparing him with Centro is favorable for Hocker.
no doubt about it. would love to see him on the diamond league circuit. no doubt we should get him at Pre, Monaco, and worlds at the very least.
LarsL9 wrote:
John Wesley Harding wrote:
I agree with Flagpole. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Centro’s best days are behind him, and that Hocker winds up running 1:44/3:28/3:46/7:27/12:50, winning 3 world championship medals including one gold, winning multiple Diamond League races, winning numerous U.S. titles over the next twelve years, winning the 3k at World Indoors in 2029, etc., but never places higher than 4th in his four Olympic appearances—you don’t think he could be regarded as better overall than Centro? I do.
He won't. Just to be clear. But I aagree that you can be better even if you lack an olympic medal.
I have Webb above Centro on my personal us milers list but objectively Centro has too much hardware to ignore. He's our 2nd best mid d guy of all time after last.
Hocker's kick will affect Jakob and Tim as much as it did at the 2020 olympics. He's got to have the ability to be there for it to matter. Most likely he will be too gassed to have the same impact the last 100m. The finish would look like cheserek and lawi lalang in that 2014 ncaa 5k. Strength vs speed.
None are claiming he is the best ever but —
Best Ever Indoors Over 1 Mile - Debatable
Sub 3:50 Indoors
Millrose - King when it was very popular
Sub 4:00 at age 41 - First Master To do so.
After 3 Rounds of the 5000, made a mockery of the 5000 to become WORLD CHAMPION -
Speculation of course but it appeared as though Eammon could have run 2-3 seconds quicker on the last lap had he had needed to.
Sun4@41 wrote:
None are claiming he is the best ever but —
Best Ever Indoors Over 1 Mile - Debatable
Sub 3:50 Indoors
Millrose - King when it was very popular
Sub 4:00 at age 41 - First Master To do so.
After 3 Rounds of the 5000, made a mockery of the 5000 to become WORLD CHAMPION -
Speculation of course but it appeared as though Eammon could have run 2-3 seconds quicker on the last lap had he had needed to.
Eamonn could have run faster for sure. He was celebrating with like 80 meters left, just making a mockery of the whole deal as the Russian had no chance in a kick with Eamonn. A very weak field.
John Wesley Harding wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
Way! Winning medals has to do with the competition. Are all Olympic Gold medal winners better than Paul Tergat? Um...nope!
I agree with Flagpole. Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that Centro’s best days are behind him, and that Hocker winds up running 1:44/3:28/3:46/7:27/12:50, winning 3 world championship medals including one gold, winning multiple Diamond League races, winning numerous U.S. titles over the next twelve years, winning the 3k at World Indoors in 2029, etc., but never places higher than 4th in his four Olympic appearances—you don’t think he could be regarded as better overall than Centro? I do.
Yep. You are CORRECT!
Olympic medals are cool, and you can only run against who toes the line that day, but some years, some eras, are better than others. Frank Shorter has two Olympic medals in the marathon (both of which should Gold rather than just one), but the US has a LOT of marathoners who are better than he was who haven't won a damn thing.
You guys could just say Daniel Komen was a better runner than Centro. This is irrelevant to the discussion. Of course the gold does not make Centro better than everyone without an Olympic medal. So what? Hocker has done little to indicate he will be better than Centro. Maybe he will as he is young.
UhmNo wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
We were talking about TIMES, not medals. Winning a gold medal is a great achievement, but it really only depends on the competition you have that day. Hocker could end up being a better runner than Centrowitz and never win ANY Olympic medal.
Hocker will have better PRs than Centrowitz. Jeebus.
...the competition you have that day. ???
You do realize the 2016 1500 Oly finals included the World record holder, right?
Kiprop, Makloufi, Souliman, Willis, Kwemoi....all 3:28 and faster guys.
Centro smoked em all from 400 out including Mak who can run 1:41.
Until Hocker is performing at that level, he is not "more accomplished" than Centro.
1) I didn't use the phrase "more accomplished". I said "better runner".
2) Yes, the competition you have that day. Sometimes not everyone is 100% when they are on the line. And El Guerrouj was not in the race that day.
3) Hocker will have better PRs than Centrowitz when his career is over. Whether he wins any Olympic Gold medals has to do with the competition he has that day. The world is getting more and more competitive all the time. It could easily happen that Hocker is significantly better than Centrowitz and never wins a medal of any kind in any world competition, because that is determined by how good other runners are. Not sure how it is you don't understand that.
High hopes wrote:
[quote]CopperRunner wrote:
It's going to be some time before we see championship races revert to slow affairs. Ingebrigtsen knows he can run away from everyone in the field except Cheruiyot and his father/coach has openly said he doesn't have the best speed, so why would he ever want to get involved in a three lap jog before trying to kick? It's the same for Cheruiyot. Then you have McSweyn, who is not in their class, but also has no kick so pushes every race from the gun. He will make it stick maybe one time out of every ten, but that will always be his best chance of a top-3 place.
The upshot is that Hocker and others are going to need to adapt and be prepared to run sub-3:30 in every major global race until those three retire or move on. Josh Kerr has accepted that, as has Jake Wightman who has changed his training in recognition that super fast final laps will not win medals in the near future.
Slow - or tactical races as some call them, won't be happening outside of national champs for a good few years.
We’ll see. Jakob himself has not done the Tim tactic and ran a 3:30 type race alone. All Tim has to do is go to the front and slow down the pace. The 1500 is a mind game, and just because we have two fast Tim-led ones in a row doesn’t mean he won’t try a new tactic OR if he does the others will definitely pick up the slack.
rorimc wrote:
You guys could just say Daniel Komen was a better runner than Centro. This is irrelevant to the discussion. Of course the gold does not make Centro better than everyone without an Olympic medal. So what? Hocker has done little to indicate he will be better than Centro. Maybe he will as he is young.
Cole Hocker is 20 years old and hasn't even been running big mileage.
He already has a 1500 PR that is just one second behind Centrowitz.
He already has a mile PR that is just one second behind Centrowitz.
He already has an 800 PR that is less than 2 seconds behind Centrowitz.
He already has a 3000 PR that is faster than Centrowitz.
He already has run a 13:18 5,000, and he has hardly even run that distance. Centrowitz's PR is 13:00, but Hocker will get well under 13 eventually.
I say that's a lot to indicate he will be better...again, an INDICATION. No guarantees in life. My prediction is that he will be considered the better runner when their careers are over.