Highschool Cross Country all-stars race by decade Footlocker style, which decade wins?

oldoldrunner wrote:

birdbeard wrote:

Fun hypo.

I am not going include the 1990s and prior guys as I just don't remember enough of them and it's tough to compare across generations. Given their HS success, I assume Pre, Virgin, and Lindgren all would be T5-10 guys in a race like this, but who knows where to put them. But in a hypothetical of the 2000s, 2010s, and 2020s, here goes my best guess based on how all these guys ran/their fitness level in their respective best seasons/postseasons races (5 from each):

2020s - Sahlman, Wolfe, Young, Young, Hough

1. Dathan Ritzenhein -- nobody has dominated HS cross country running, particularly against guys like Webb/Hall, as Ritz. Nobody has come within 39 seconds of his 14:10 in Michigan since, despite guys like Hough, Kessler, and Fisher. His FL performance against Webb was probably the best run by a HSer ever (highest speed rating I am aware of -- his 214 there is considerably better than something like Young's 205 in 2019).

2. Edward Cheserek -- as close to Ritz's dominance as it comes, but he was more of a racer so I'm not sure we ever saw just how fast he could go if pushed. Challenged Verzbicas when he was just a sophomore (2nd at NXN), easily won in kicks at FL both the next years. Highest rating of 208 (207 @ FL).

3. Lukas Verzbicas -- up there with the dudes above him. 2x champ, pretty much untouchable, and tended to dominate. Not sure of his highest speed rating.

4. Chris Solinsky -- absolutely crushed a great field in 2002 - speed rating of 212 (3rd highest ever to my knowledge).

5. Matt Withrow -- very underrated on here, it seems. Two of the fastest speed ratings ever (207 @ FL, 207 @ FLR). Beat one of the greatest fields of all time in taking down Rupp, Kiptoo, and True. Deserving of this spot.

6. Grant Fisher - another 2x champ with fantastic speed ratings (206).

7. Drew Hunter -- one of the best FL performances in recent memory (207). Obvious huge talent.

8. Nico Young -- dominated a great field at NXN. Speed rating of 205.

9. Mike Fout -- very underrated, but put up one of the greatest performances and speed ratings at FL his senior year in taking down Chris Derrick and German Fernandez (210).

10. C. Sahlman -- Very tough to compare the Garmin RL course to any other. HIs speedrating at RL was a 203 so I'm using that as a guide.

11. G. Fernandez -- Best of the non-champions given his terrific 209 at Woodward, which withstood the challenges of Nico Young and Colin Sahlman.

12. P. Wolfe -- COVID certainly limited his ability to show off in his best year -- would have liked to see what he could do on some classic courses. Oh well.

13. Leo Young -- Just behind Sahlman all year.

14. Lex Young -- Same

15. Riley Hough -- Won FL, hard to know if RL was just a down race or if the NP guys are fitter.

By speed ratings, the 2020s decade dudes just don't compare, but speed ratings do have their flaws. Still, given that none of the NP guys could beat German's times and Sahlman is the only champ of the group, I think it's a fair order.

Chris Derrick probably has an argument to be ahead of Fernandez. He has a 208 speed rating from FL when he lost to Fout. Alan Webb was pretty dominant in 2000 but for getting pulverized by Ritz at FLN, but he could arguably be above Fernandez as well, I suppose. Fout might have some legit beef with being 9th as well given his amazing performance and competition that year -- could see him being 6th or 7th, but I give Fisher the nod for being a 2x champ. Can't solve every issue, but if you move Fout to 6th the older dudes probably win.

Final Team Scores:

1. 2010s - 26

2. 2000s - 30

3. 2020s - 64

Meet Eric Hulst:

http://www.runningentertainment.com/runningshots19.html

Jonathan Commentor wrote:

each decade gets the 10 best cross country runners, which decade of US high school xc wins? IMO the real battle is 70's vs 2010's.

Does the class of '01 have enough to put the 2010's in the top two?

Does the 2020's, despite having only two years of runners to choose from make the top 3?

these are some of the guys that make the list for each decade, your list can be different. still in highschool rn so I don't have as knowledge about the pre-2000's guys.

60's - jim ryun, gerry lindgren, etc

70's - craig virgin, steve prefontaine, rich kimball, jorge torres, eric hulst, etc

80's - eric reynalds, etc

90's - ???

2000's - Dathan Ritzenhein, German Fernandez, Ryan Hall, Alan Webb, Chris Solinsky, etc

2010's - Nico Young, Lukas Versbicas, Ed Ches, Josh Methner, Leo Dashbach, Cole Sprout, Grant Fisher, Drew Hunter, Liam Anderson, Ryan Schoppe

2020's - Colin Sahlman, Leo Young, Lex Young, Zane Bergen, Riley Hough, Gavin Sherry, Aaron Sahlman, Judson Greer, Hobbs Kessler, Parker Wolfe

Peach Pit wrote:

raging clue wrote:

The 2000’s takes it with the 2010’s right behind. Mike Fout and Matt Withrow are the more “underrated of this decade” and Verzbicas won for the first time in 2009.

I think Verzbicas should count as 2010s because you can't have the same person twice in a race, and Verzbicas was better in 2010. Same for Ritz, he only counts for 2000s.

For the 2000s, I think the team is gonna be:

Ritz, Webb, Hall, Rupp, Withrow, Fernandez, Solinsky, Fout, then maybe Kiptoo and Chad Hall to round it out.

For the 2010s:

Nico Young, Verzbicas, Ches, Fisher, Hunter, Sprout, Zeinasellassie, McGorty, Hocker, and Clinger

For just those two decades, I think the 2010s win just because of their depth. I think the top 5 consists of Young in 1st, then Ritz, Verzbicas, Fisher, and Solinsky.

Honestly, I think Nico wins it. He crushed the stacked NXN field in awful conditions in a CR time (beating the FL champ by 14 seconds). Then he ran a 7:56 3k a few weeks later. I think he had a good shot at 8:30 and 13:37 if he'd had a regular season. Nico ran a 13:50 with no pacing after 2k, so he definitely has the endurance, and he outkicked a 4:02 miler as a junior in his 8:40 race, so I think he has the kick to win. Ritz got bronze at WJXC, but I still think if you put Nico and Ritz head to head at FL, Nico wins, even if it's just barely.

Solinksy could be anywhere from 2-4 IMO. Sure, he crushed his FL field, but that field wasn't as good as the 2019 NXN field. Verzbicas won FL 2 years in a row and won NXN, along with a sub 4 and an 8:29 that spring, and won World Junior triathalon or something, which makes me think he'd probably also beat Solinsky. I think there was a consensus that Fisher also had a shot to beat Ritz's Michigan State Meet record (14:10), but the horrible conditions that day prevented him from doing it, though he still ran one of the best times ever there. He also ran 3:59 and 8:43, so I think he beats Solinsky.

For the rest of the top 15, I think Ches, Clinger, Hunter, Webb, Hocker, Withrow, Rupp, Zeinasellassie, and both Halls. Roughly in that order. Webb is that low because he beat pretty much everyone in XC until he got absolutely crushed by Ritz at FL. Also, Hunter won FL, then broke Webb's indoor mile record, then broke his own record. If he hadn't gotten Lyme disease, I think he may have gotten a shot at Webb's outdoor record too, so he goes above Webb. Ches won FL twice and won NCAA XC his freshman year so he's pretty high too.

westsouthrunner wrote:

60's - jim ryun, gerry lindgren, etc

70's - craig virgin, steve prefontaine, rich kimball, jorge torres, eric hulst, etc

80's - eric reynalds, etc

90's - ???

2000's - Dathan Ritzenhein, German Fernandez, Ryan Hall, Alan Webb, Chris Solinsky, etc

2010's - Nico Young, Lukas Versbicas, Ed Ches, Josh Methner, Leo Dashbach, Cole Sprout, Grant Fisher, Drew Hunter, Liam Anderson, Ryan Schoppe

2020's - Colin Sahlman, Leo Young, Lex Young, Zane Bergen, Riley Hough, Gavin Sherry, Aaron Sahlman, Judson Greer, Hobbs Kessler, Parker Wolfe

1. Ritz - I see this as

2. Lindgren - 29:17 10k ability paired with 8:40 speed

3. Virgin - only above Verzbicas because of his record and he ran 13:58

4. Verzbicas - I secretly think he can beat anyone here but there is still some evidence that the guys above him could manage to break him. 3:59 - 8:29 track times

5. Fernandez - 14:24 rcord which all the youngs and Sahlman failed to beat

6. Hunter - 1:48- 3:57 - 7:59 ability

7. Nico Young -all the guys above him have superior results in longer distances, or similar 5k ability paired with faster mile times.

8. Cheserek - 29:40 10k 13:57 indoors paired with 4:02 and 8:39 notable win over Futsum Z and 2nd to Lukas

9. Solinsky - could be anywhere from 9th to 2nd in my opinion. he won footlocker by 21 seconds running 14:41

10. Webb - Tossup between him and Fisher. I think he edges fisher in a race like this.

11. Grant Fisher - 3:59 guy and undertrained in hs compared to Webb who you know was training hard lol.

Stopping here because the 2010s would already have 5 runners in scoring 36 pts. I think there isa legitimate argument that Colin Sahlman and the other youngs could be in this top 10. That argument will ironically be strengthened on the track this winter/spring.

Jonathan Commentor wrote:

You known I think most of your list is good, I don't get why so many people put Nico so far down though! While I'd respect a list that maybe doesn't put him top 2 like I would, but damn, not even top 5? Fernandez got 3rd at Nattys, and Hunter took down a significantly weaker field. I think most people that put Nico so low do it just because he's new, and hasn't really proven himself against the test of time like the previous guys. But I think the results he put up during his career spoke for themselves... the list of individuals he beat:

Daschbach, (ATT #3 Woodward course record list, future sub 4 HS miler, #3 ATT xc all time 5k)

Methner, (#2 all time xc 3 mile behind Nico)

Sprout (8:41 3200 runner his junior year, #4 ATT xc all time 5k)

Schoppe (undefeated Texas champ, #2 ATT xc all time 5k)

and plenty more: Caleb Brown, Matt Strangio, Nathan Green, etc

at NXN he gapped the field by 14 seconds...

He held back for NXN the week earlier at CIF. still ran a 14:29, whether he really could've gotten 14:24 is obviously debatable, but personally I think he could have.

I know the question is about xc but when you look at his track times its even more apparant... second fastest 3200/2mile-converted time as a junior ever behind Hunter,

#4 fastest outdoor highschool US 5k despite awful conditions, weak pacing and an entire freakin' season cancelled by the Rona, I mean how can you put this guy at 7th?

Jonathan Commentor wrote:

You known I think most of your list is good, I don't get why so many people put Nico so far down though! While I'd respect a list that maybe doesn't put him top 2 like I would, but damn, not even top 5? Fernandez got 3rd at Nattys, and Hunter took down a significantly weaker field. I think most people that put Nico so low do it just because he's new, and hasn't really proven himself against the test of time like the previous guys. But I think the results he put up during his career spoke for themselves... the list of individuals he beat:

Daschbach, (ATT #3 Woodward course record list, future sub 4 HS miler, #3 ATT xc all time 5k)

Methner, (#2 all time xc 3 mile behind Nico)

Sprout (8:41 3200 runner his junior year, #4 ATT xc all time 5k)

Schoppe (undefeated Texas champ, #2 ATT xc all time 5k)

and plenty more: Caleb Brown, Matt Strangio, Nathan Green, etc

at NXN he gapped the field by 14 seconds...

He held back for NXN the week earlier at CIF. still ran a 14:29, whether he really could've gotten 14:24 is obviously debatable, but personally I think he could have.

I know the question is about xc but when you look at his track times its even more apparant... second fastest 3200/2mile-converted time as a junior ever behind Hunter,

#4 fastest outdoor highschool US 5k despite awful conditions, weak pacing and an entire freakin' season cancelled by the Rona, I mean how can you put this guy at 7th?

westsouthrunner wrote:

Peach Pit wrote:

I think Verzbicas should count as 2010s because you can't have the same person twice in a race, and Verzbicas was better in 2010. Same for Ritz, he only counts for 2000s.

For the 2000s, I think the team is gonna be:

Ritz, Webb, Hall, Rupp, Withrow, Fernandez, Solinsky, Fout, then maybe Kiptoo and Chad Hall to round it out.

For the 2010s:

Nico Young, Verzbicas, Ches, Fisher, Hunter, Sprout, Zeinasellassie, McGorty, Hocker, and Clinger

For just those two decades, I think the 2010s win just because of their depth. I think the top 5 consists of Young in 1st, then Ritz, Verzbicas, Fisher, and Solinsky.

Honestly, I think Nico wins it. He crushed the stacked NXN field in awful conditions in a CR time (beating the FL champ by 14 seconds). Then he ran a 7:56 3k a few weeks later. I think he had a good shot at 8:30 and 13:37 if he'd had a regular season. Nico ran a 13:50 with no pacing after 2k, so he definitely has the endurance, and he outkicked a 4:02 miler as a junior in his 8:40 race, so I think he has the kick to win. Ritz got bronze at WJXC, but I still think if you put Nico and Ritz head to head at FL, Nico wins, even if it's just barely.

Solinksy could be anywhere from 2-4 IMO. Sure, he crushed his FL field, but that field wasn't as good as the 2019 NXN field. Verzbicas won FL 2 years in a row and won NXN, along with a sub 4 and an 8:29 that spring, and won World Junior triathalon or something, which makes me think he'd probably also beat Solinsky. I think there was a consensus that Fisher also had a shot to beat Ritz's Michigan State Meet record (14:10), but the horrible conditions that day prevented him from doing it, though he still ran one of the best times ever there. He also ran 3:59 and 8:43, so I think he beats Solinsky.

For the rest of the top 15, I think Ches, Clinger, Hunter, Webb, Hocker, Withrow, Rupp, Zeinasellassie, and both Halls. Roughly in that order. Webb is that low because he beat pretty much everyone in XC until he got absolutely crushed by Ritz at FL. Also, Hunter won FL, then broke Webb's indoor mile record, then broke his own record. If he hadn't gotten Lyme disease, I think he may have gotten a shot at Webb's outdoor record too, so he goes above Webb. Ches won FL twice and won NCAA XC his freshman year so he's pretty high too.

Verzbicas,L Lindgren, Fernandez, Ritz, and possibly Solinksy all would have beaten Nico young. I am not even honestly convinced that Nico would beat Drew hunter. Which isn't saying he is a bad runner but I don't think his NXN win puts him ahead of all htose guys. In fact there could be evidence that he loses to his brothers and Colin Sahlman if we want to heavily weigh some of the course records and all of their failed attempts at breaking German's state record.