Calling BS on Coach Jon Green and Molly Seidel Magical Transformation Story

Every great coach began their career with one athlete.

ackay wrote:

percy cerutty

I thought that too then remembered cerutty held the 100km road record in Australia before becoming a coach. I think he may have also been a miler before he was a mailman and before his ultra running feats.

Makes Paper wrote:

Your problem isn't really with Green. Your problem is with thinking that marathon training is some sort of magic that you have to be a wizard to divine. It's not magic, and it's not that hard to figure out if you take it seriously.

No, I'm pretty sure my problem is with Jon Green and Molly Seidel's not believable explanations. With Houlihan getting busted for burritos after her own magical transformation, the Jon Green and Molly Seidel stories hold less credibility than ever. Houlihan magically got incredibly lean for a woman just like what we are seeing with Seidel from her photos, and also became world class seemingly overnight after a long time of not going anywhere. Houlihan appears to have been micro-dosing and messed up dosage or got tainted PEDs, is Seidel also micro-dosing? That wouldn't appear on any drug test or biological passport if you got the right advice from someone in the know with access to the right doctors

Nate the Great wrote:

As a first rate detective who watched Molly from the age of 14 onward, I have done extensive research and uncovered the very drug responsible for Molly's transformation from a non speed demon to FLCC Champion to NCAA champion to bronze medalist.

The drug is LOVE.

She loves the guy and he offsets her insecurities that led to an eating disorder. He gives her confidence and therefore she trusts and listens to him. The talent was otherwise always there.

Case closed, case closed.

While I have no doubt that Coach Jon Green and Molly Seidel are secretly dating each other and that what you call LOVE is indeed just a combination of drugs, neither is performance enhancing.

I'm a huge Seidel fan, but hot take: she is not a world class marathoner. She took some big scalps in the Sapporo, but on a flat, fast course in good conditions, she would get absolutely wrecked by the East Africans. Her PR is 7.8% slower than the world record. Is a 2:10 guy world class? Please. I'd say she's world class in terms of toughness and grit, which can put a 2:24 woman on the podium in bad conditions. Fulsendol is a hell of a drug.

MeToo! wrote:

sunflower wrote:

The inexperience of the Coach doesn't raise a concern to me. If anything that's a mark in their favor because they are less likely to have a lot of connections and experience in the world of doping.

So Jon Green's connections to Mike Smith and Galen Rupp is not suspicious to you? And Green claimed he was a "professional" runner so if course he has connections, and suspiciously there is zero mentions of Jon Green as a runner before he transformed Seidel, why is that?

He got 5th and 10th in NCAA cross.

MeToo! wrote:

Imimpresssed wrote:

Like a national class runner can’t figure out how to write workouts. And a FL and NCAA champion can’t get good once healthy.

Jon Green has never even run a marathon or coached anyone and Molly Seidel was an injured has been who never even remotely approached this world class level. Yet, we are supposed to believe that in less than a year Green was able to magically transform has been Seidel to be far, far faster than she ever was with only 1 or 2 other women in the world better than her at the Olympic marathon? I've got magical beans to sell you

Vince Lombardi, Paul Brown and Bill Walsh never played a down in the NFL but I think they turned out to be pretty good coaches.

Makes Paper wrote:

Your problem isn't really with Green. Your problem is with thinking that marathon training is some sort of magic that you have to be a wizard to divine. It's not magic, and it's not that hard to figure out if you take it seriously.

This, so much. Coaching isn't about workouts or finding a magic formula, everyone knows how to train someone for a marathon. The key is figuring out where on the volume/intensity spectrum your athlete falls, and the athlete believing in you as a coach. From listening to Seidel, the thing Green brings is that he listens to her and she needs that. I think she'd regress massively under a coach like Schumacher with his rigid training philosophy.

Also, I don't see anything suspect about Seidel. She's always been a top tier US talent and has a competitive instinct that lets her compete on the global stage as well. If she runs 2:17 next year, I'll ask some questions about PED use, but for now, she has a worse PR than Emma Bates and Charlotte Purdue so I'm not thinking she's doing anything magical

Me Too, I think you're missing one important element: her OCD. That disorder can lead to greatness or chaos. If channeled appropriately with a once-in-a-generation talent like Seidel (think of the history of Foot Locker and NCAA and she is the only woman to have won Foot Locker and NCAA XC) you get an Olympic medal. No different than Joan Benoit or Deena Kastor.

Your accusations appear to be tinged with malicious envy, which is all too common in the postings on this message board.

Yes, PED use is rampant in T & F, and any good performance will understandably (and unfortunately for clean athletes), raise suspicions with some people.

But, you make some illogical leaps in Molly S.'s case. I have no idea if Molly S. took /takes any PED, but so far there is no evidence or legitimate reason to suspect this. IMO, she is probably a "clean" athlete, but there is no way to know for sure. She was obviously a very talented runner from a young age, who suffered from an eating disorder and serious injuries. She got her mind and body in the right place and had two inspiring races, neither in a time near the WR, since that is one of your issues.

And what is your problem with Jon Green? Everyone has to start somewhere with some athlete (s). Time will tell if he coaches others to greatness. He also spoke to Mike Smith a lot for advice in coaching Molly.

You disgust me.

As a libertarian and a centrist, I firmly believe that feelings are far more important than facts. While I don't have any facts that prove Molly is using PEDs, I simply believe- I have Faith that Molly Seidel used drugs to get to the Olympics.

You shouldn't really take the OP seriously.

I give it 3/10

conorsleith wrote:

I'm a huge Seidel fan, but hot take: she is not a world class marathoner. She took some big scalps in the Sapporo, but on a flat, fast course in good conditions, she would get absolutely wrecked by the East Africans. Her PR is 7.8% slower than the world record. Is a 2:10 guy world class? Please. I'd say she's world class in terms of toughness and grit, which can put a 2:24 woman on the podium in bad conditions. Fulsendol is a hell of a drug.

Winning an Olympic medal means that you’re world class.

The only dumb take is that there was a miraculous transformation in the first place. Seidel has always had the potential to be the greatest American runner of her generation. You don't win either FL or NCAA XC without having incredible natural talent. NCAA XC in particular is an incredibly competitive race. And Seidel is the only woman in history to win both. There was zero reason to think she couldn't be at least as good as Deena, who still has the 49th fastest marathon in history.

Regarding her lean appearance, as distasteful as it feels to comment on the appearance of someone who had/has an eating disorder, I would just suggest that you look at pictures from her ND days. While she's clearly very lean now (as elite runners must be), she was basically a skeleton back then. She didn't look strong; she looked sick.

Also, as others have pointed out, medaling in the Olympic Marathon is not the same as winning Berlin or medaling on the track. Not to take anything away from her, but an unrabbited marathon on a hot day has an element of randomness, and it is far more likely to produce a winner from outside of the favorites.

As for Green's inexperience, if you think that's a red flag, that just further reveals how little you understand about coaching and how little you know about the history of the sport. While experience can help a coach improve (particularly when it comes to dealing with a wide variety of athletes and varied circumstances), experience is neither necessary nor sufficient. Most of coaching is just (1) the art of finding the right levels of stress and recovery, and (2) supporting the athlete psychologically. The details of the workouts are mostly immaterial once you have a basic understanding. Most coaches are using a mix of workouts that are pretty similar.

Of course, it would be foolish to be too confident that any particular elite athlete is clean. Doping is easy, and there's a huge incentive to do it. But there's really nothing about Seidel's performance trajectory that suggests doping.

Can we get a ruling, is it sigh-DELL or SIGH-dull? Most people say the former, but I could swear I heard her pronounce it the latter.

Wow. OP getting wrecked.

MeToo! wrote:

Gucci wrote:

So do you have anything substantive to add, or are you just throwing out wild and unwarranted speculation?

Yes I do. LRC posters attack East Africans for far more believable stories than Jon Green and Molly "Cinderella Transformation" Seidel.

Dude...Molly is just alpha af and has been killing it in the past 2+ years with consistent training, dedication, and talent. First of all, she didn't come out of nowhere but was an NCAA champ like many other ppl have already pointed out here. Second, she seems to fully trust her coach and anyone who has actually played sports on a high enough level will acknowledge that the relationship and trust between coach and athlete are quintessential for any success story. Name one wold class athlete who didn't trust their coach right around when they had been at the peak of their performance, I dare you.

This thread is really just an example of virgins livin in their mom's basement and postin horse crap after the holidays because Santa didn't love them enough...Pathetic!

He helped her get healthy and train consistently. She had talent enough to be an elite American marathoner. The issue with championship marathons is that because of money and/or testing a fair amount of the best East African talent will not compete, some will DNF to save it for a more lucrative event, some will go for the win and die, and others will seemingly underperform because of the conditions. In extreme marathon conditions, unexpected runners with some talent or weather acclimation will win or place (Desi and Yuki in Boston, Seidel in Sapporo, and it happens in other events too, such as the U.S. men's xc in snowy, muddy Poland years ago).

Jeff Wigand wrote:

conorsleith wrote:

I'm a huge Seidel fan, but hot take: she is not a world class marathoner. She took some big scalps in the Sapporo, but on a flat, fast course in good conditions, she would get absolutely wrecked by the East Africans. Her PR is 7.8% slower than the world record. Is a 2:10 guy world class? Please. I'd say she's world class in terms of toughness and grit, which can put a 2:24 woman on the podium in bad conditions. Fulsendol is a hell of a drug.

Winning an Olympic medal means that you’re world class.

This.

Hot take: this site is a magnet for insecure dimwits who are willfully uninformed.