fizzyologism wrote:
kenyahigheweeeeefefa wrote:
this is just a rumour only
No, it's from the research:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00647.2020
They used a very bad protocol to test VO2max:
the running speed was increased by 1 km/h every 3 min (until 19 km/h) and by 0.5 km/h every 3 min
This bad protocol, for measuring VO2max, leads to a total test time of 30 minutes, much too long, and a classical beginner mistake!
fizzyologism wrote:
kenyahigheweeeeefefa wrote:
this is just a rumour only
No, it's from the research:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00647.2020
why dont they also include kipchoge vo2max in the research?
There was a very detailed post by Jack Daniels early in the life of this forum, which explained all the difficulties of getting a repeatable V02 measurement, even using exhaled air. Like, did they calibrate the treadmill? What kind of gear is capturing the air? Lots of factors each create variations of up to 5%.
So Derek Clayton's 69%, and somebody else's 80-something, are quite possibly just different labs doing things differently, and these outliers got remembered in folklore.
The best you can hope for is that the same lab rigorously does things the same way, and an individual can then accurately track their changes over time.
He was both a physiologist who measured this stuff in his day-job, and a great coach. He basically said that your times are all that matters.
kenyahigheweeeeefefa wrote:
fizzyologism wrote:
No, it's from the research:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00647.2020why dont they also include kipchoge vo2max in the research?
He was tested. You will have to guess which results are his.
lexel wrote:
fizzyologism wrote:
No, it's from the research:
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00647.2020They used a very bad protocol to test VO2max:
the running speed was increased by 1 km/h every 3 min (until 19 km/h) and by 0.5 km/h every 3 min
This bad protocol, for measuring VO2max, leads to a total test time of 30 minutes, much too long, and a classical beginner mistake!
They were all Marathon runners. They weren't training for 3000m races. The results reflect the oxygen kinetics of Marathon trained runners.
The highest value is given as VO2 peak for 30 second average. For a VO2max test the standard required is the average oxygen uptake for 1 minute.
If they were training specifically for 3000m and 5000m races you would expect VO2max to be recorded at around 24kmh with a different protocol.
This is an interesting study in the schematic left shift of Oxygen and Lactate Kinetics for Marathon runners, something Renato Canova has been writing about here since 2003.
fizzyologism wrote:
lexel wrote:
They used a very bad protocol to test VO2max:
the running speed was increased by 1 km/h every 3 min (until 19 km/h) and by 0.5 km/h every 3 min
This bad protocol, for measuring VO2max, leads to a total test time of 30 minutes, much too long, and a classical beginner mistake!
They were all Marathon runners. They weren't training for 3000m races. The results reflect the oxygen kinetics of Marathon trained runners.
The highest value is given as VO2 peak for 30 second average. For a VO2max test the standard required is the average oxygen uptake for 1 minute.
If they were training specifically for 3000m and 5000m races you would expect VO2max to be recorded at around 24kmh with a different protocol.
This is an interesting study in the schematic left shift of Oxygen and Lactate Kinetics for Marathon runners, something Renato Canova has been writing about here since 2003.
The research is flawed. Can do laboratory settings but still make it a physiological study.
fizzyologism wrote:
They were all Marathon runners. They weren't training for 3000m races. The results reflect the oxygen kinetics of Marathon trained runners.
The highest value is given as VO2 peak for 30 second average. For a VO2max test the standard required is the average oxygen uptake for 1 minute.
Oh boy ..
To measure VO2max correctly is independent if they are marathon runners or 3000m runners.
You have to do it right, and it was not done properly in this study.
lexel wrote:
fizzyologism wrote:
They were all Marathon runners. They weren't training for 3000m races. The results reflect the oxygen kinetics of Marathon trained runners.
The highest value is given as VO2 peak for 30 second average. For a VO2max test the standard required is the average oxygen uptake for 1 minute.
Oh boy ..
To measure VO2max correctly is independent if they are marathon runners or 3000m runners.
You have to do it right, and it was not done properly in this study.
World famous Oxygen Kinetics expert Iexel telling us that Professor Andrew Jones doesn't know what he's doing.
Professor Iexel, please explain how it should be done?
Tell Andy Jones where he's been going wrong all these years and why he shouldn't be testing the World's best athletes?
I'm curious too, lexel. How can you support that claim?
Iexel is a hobbyjogger who can't break 20 minutes for 5k. His knowledge of Oxygen Kinetics and Lactate Kinetics is on a similar level.
Andy Jones ran 30.13 for 10k back in 1987. He's been a top researcher for many years.
fizzyologism wrote:
Iexel is a hobbyjogger who can't break 20 minutes for 5k. His knowledge of Oxygen Kinetics and Lactate Kinetics is on a similar level.
Andy Jones ran 30.13 for 10k back in 1987. He's been a top researcher for many years.
I did not know that i have to run below 20min/5k that my answer gets more correct than :)
Posted already several hints to that, just read again. But consider i am a slow runner, and therefore it could be not correct :)
You have never performed any spiroergometry in any labor correct? Rhetorical question.
lexel wrote:
You have never performed any spiroergometry in any labor correct? Rhetorical question.
Mais oui. Circumambulation de Glastonbury Tor. Chaque solstice. Avec les Druides.
Lose weight, build up more muscle, do speed work. What matters is how many muscle fibers use oxygen for fat burning. If you have scrawny or few fibers, then there is less fat burning and your oxygen usage levels off at a low VO2max. Add more muscle, and thereby increase the amount of oxygen you use - more fibers that can use the oxygen. It doesn't have to be a supply limit. It can also be a demand limit. Lung ventillation, oxygen carrying ability of your blood, capillarity, etc. can all be improved with the right training, given the muscle that you are activating. Get more muscle fibers in the act, and lose weight, to improve your VO2max. Get rid of excess upper body muscle that isn't important in running performance. There's bound to be limits to the optimal efficient amount of muscle activation for the speed you run, and the weight you carry, so just developing huge calves won't necessarily help. But I think that a little more strength would improve on a lot of runners' VO2max. I doubt that runners who aren't world beaters would want to become stick figures in order to improve their VO2max tho. So the limit to your VO2max is mostly your choice.
Nopt sure how you measure the VO2max that often...
There is a genetic potential so some serious training for a longer time is needed to maximize this potential. It could probably be assessed by a good coach if the training has been enough to reach that potential. I don't know what is enough.
If you race 5k and not shorter the main factor is really the pace at anaerobic threshold or at Critical Velocity (approx your 40-60min race pace). The highest pace and percentage of VO2max you can reach without lactate accumulation really prescribes your race ability the most for these distances. Now that is not entirely true if the VO2max potential is not reached since an increase in VO2 max will directly pull the lactate threshold pace with it. On the other hand, doing hard VO2max training does not raise the lactate threshold pace in the short term, but rather makes you ready to push hard above lactate threshold and race well for let us say 5k
So I would focus much more around lactate threshold pace and not VO2 max. It depends on your training philosophy, but threshold and tempo work is good, as well as 10k pace intervals (CV). All intensities work on the VO2max potential, not just VO2max efforts, but VO2max paced workouts is not the the best and sustainable way to build aerobic capacity.